US Should Return "Stolen Land" To Indian Tribes

[figatova]

Originally Posted by noxomus

not sure if we share the same definition of "advanced". There was nothing here "advanced" before the Europeans settled America and i think it is silly for you to mention this highly inaccurate comparison.

Of course, the Aztecs, Mound Builders, ... never existed and there were no advanced societies in a mostly empty land full of savages. Only it wasn't empty and it wasn't full of savages unless you still believe the imperial rhetoric of the time. Incidentally the same imperial rhetoric that's being used today in order to justify Western imperialism under the excuse we bomb the shit out of half of the world in order to bring democracy and save the living crap out of those poor uncivilised people. I have no doubt you would've been as stunned as Hernan Cortes when he saw Tenochtitlan. Although less excusable in your case since we live in 2012 and you should know better.

Originally Posted by noxomus

Misery? It brought them all into the 21st century. They would still be chasing monkeys and sucking on rocks.

Sure, I wonder if Ota Benga or the countless of other subjects kept in captivity and displayed in human zoos all over the US and Europe lived long enough to appreciate how lucky they were to live in such advanced 21st century societies.

Originally Posted by noxomus

What took centuries for Europe to developed was given overnight to the Africans and turned to shit the minute the Europeans left.
How can you say preposterous stuff like this? Advanced? Kept them underdeveloped???How so?? Are you taking crazy pills? lol

Yeah, like black powder, porcelain, paper, mining,..all quite clearly European and more importantly WHITE inventions, right Nox?
Only they're not.

And I'm not sure I should waste my time explaining how imperialism kept other societies underdeveloped and how it's still doing the same today when quite obviously you seem to be totally unaware of it.

Originally Posted by noxomus

100% ALL to do with it. Don't know if you noticed but that is how nature works? The strong and smart will survive. Its common sense, not sure why it escapes you.

No, it's not how nature works and it's not common sense but a moronic layman false interpretation of the term "survival of the fittest". If you knew even the basics of what you're talking about you would realise that in nature, weak and dumb have actually quite often been more successful at surviving than strong and smart. If you knew even the basics of what you're talking about you would realise "survival of the fittest" has nothing to do with being physically fit or strong.

But yeah, sure Nox, it must be a genetic thing, so obviously Native Americans or indeed anyone of not of European WHITE origin is too genetically stupid to evolve into a modern and advanced society. Nice one mate.

Originally Posted by noxomus

nope you weren't because there is a good reason why America is as successful and powerful as it is. GOOD reasons. Label it what ever you wish but those labels don't accomplish anything except show your contempt and I'm not sure why. Most Americans don't go around crowing about how great we are unless someone like you comes out to put us down (like i am right now). When we fight back then we are "arrogant", lol.

On the contrary, Americans are notoriously famous for having the need to continuously shout about how they believe they are number one at everything and reassure themselves on how they think they're exceptional and most importantly they're notoriously famous for their arrogance.
A behaviour that underlines a lack of confidence and that it's difficult to find in any other nation.
None of the above needing any provocation nor instigation by anyone.

Originally Posted by noxomus

if you picked up a history book you will see that this is how humankind has progressed as a species and the outcome validates the means. Its not americas job to take care of the world so stop blaming us for its ills.

I guess you haven't read or understood any of my previous posts.

[dad61]

Like all this industrialization has made us better? Happier?

Hahahaha, gimme a fucking break

[figatova]

Originally Posted by noxomus

Yeah, i think that any American that brags about their ancestry is stupid. I am 100% American even though my great great grandparent came over from Wales.

I wouldn't call them stupid but a product of your country's history.
I think it's due to the US being a relatively young country which explains why its inhabitants feel the need to brag about European ancestry or Native American ancestry in order to get that sense of belonging that comes naturally to people from nations in the old continent.
Bragging, be it in regards to ancestry or convincing yourself you're number 1 , denotes a deficiency in someone's life.

This is the reason why you get the weird (to us anyway) self-appointed labels of African-American, Irish-American, etc...
Labelling that would be laughed off over here if lets say some Spaniard was to describe himself as African-Spanish or Irish-Spanish. It just wouldn't make sense and he would be dismissed as a bit loopy.

[figatova]

Originally Posted by SHUTUPANDTHINK

My claim was that A) this land was taken in the same means all other land up to that time was taken, military conflict. That was the law of man. Land was only yours if you could protect it. B) that this Country has in fact used this land and protected it militarily much better than the Native people did or could have.

And my charge is you don't know whether the part in bold is true or not.

Originally Posted by SHUTUPANDTHINK

I gave you a prime example, The greatest achievement of man to this date, landing men on the Moon and returning them safely to Earth. You call that American Exceptionalism & Arrogance. I call it Factual History.

Since the jet age and space race was done mostly thanks to German tech copied/stolen by Americans, Russians and Brits, I'm not sure you have much of a claim in regards to taking credit for that kind of tech. I'm pretty sure Native Americans knew how to steal and copy as far back as 400 years ago.
And no, I didn't call that exceptionalism or arrogance. I called American exceptionalism and arrogance your assertion that Native Americans couldn't have made better use of the land had they not been exterminated and put in concentration camps by the invading Europeans.

Originally Posted by SHUTUPANDTHINK

There is just no way they could have done that, I don't care how much peyote you smoke you can't get that high. Did they have greater understand of things that Europeans didn't? Of course, humans are humans. The problem was they were isolated too long, and thus missed out on a lot of very important technological breakthroughs. Also, They were very independent. Just the area that is now the United state was populated by thousands of tribes, this was not conducive to them ever becoming United. Left alone they would have created smaller countries in what is now the USA. Therefor IMO, we have used this land Better than they could have.

Once again, that's not true. There were plenty of tribes that were United, like I mentioned before, Incas, Aztecs, Mayans, etc...

Societies, in Europe, Asia, America and Africa all developed at different paces. European societies were, several times in history, less, more or equally advanced as other societies in other continents.
The same applies to societies and nations found in the Americas.
Like Aquina already explained, Europeans certainly had more advanced military technology but in other respects societies found in the Americas were hardly lacking in comparison to Europe. The notion that the millions living in the new world, not a few thousand as described by western historians of the time, were just a bunch of uncivilised savages that needing saving is not only untrue but a manifestation of the imperialist mentality that still quite clearly seen amongst some of you today.

Originally Posted by SHUTUPANDTHINK

Lastly, Native Americans are now Americans. Their Gene pool is so Diluted and culture so changed, they are about as Native American as I am European.

I don't believe I was arguing this point or anything even related to it.

[gswifty]

Some of you perpetuate mythology of human nature and it's lust for warfare and conquest for the sake of dominance,... (un)natural selection,... the unlimited power of technology, and the superiority and deservedness of one culture over another. Perhaps 'Hitler' said it best.



Some of you really shouldn't be so self-assured. It makes you sound foolish.

[figatova]

Originally Posted by dad61

Like all this industrialization has made us better? Happier?

Hahahaha, gimme a fucking break

Indeed.

[figatova]

Originally Posted by gswifty

Some of you perpetuate mythology of human nature and it's lust for warfare and conquest for the sake of dominance,... (un)natural selection,... the unlimited power of technology, and the superiority and deservedness of one culture over another. Perhaps 'Hitler' said it best.


Some of you really shouldn't be so self-assured. It makes you sound foolish.

Yep, going by some of the comments one would think we should all aspire to be like nazi Germany.

[faurkbeans]

Originally Posted by gswifty

Some of you perpetuate mythology of human nature and it's lust for warfare and conquest for the sake of dominance,... (un)natural selection,... the unlimited power of technology, and the superiority and deservedness of one culture over another. Perhaps 'Hitler' said it best.



Some of you really shouldn't be so self-assured. It makes you sound foolish.

It is kind of hard to argue that certain civilizations like Rome didn't have a tremendous impact on the people they conquered, and it ended up being for the better in hindsight. Even though it was by the sword it could have easily been much worse. For instance, the Gauls and Germans were waring amongst themselves constantly, lived in mud huts, had little if any sanitation, no access to the teachings of ancient Greece, and so forth. With Roman rule things started to settle down and improve after they crucified a few people and assimilated the population.

Roman rule basically paved the way for many societies to go from tribal existence to modern states. And had they not done that who know how history might have played out. Perhaps Germany wouldn't become an industrial powerhouse as it is today, or at least, not in the century they did.

What you're saying kinda reminds me of that scene from the Life of Brian.

[Dronetek]

Originally Posted by dad61

Like all this industrialization has made us better? Happier?

Hahahaha, gimme a fucking break

Oh boy... Something only a spoiled brat in the 21st century would say. Do you have no concept of history or what things were like before industrialization?

I'll also point out that a civilization that stagnates, eventually dies off. It is only advancement and technology that gives humans any hope of longevity. Of course this is a double edged sword, BUT living like animals is an even poorer option.

[gswifty]

Originally Posted by faurkbeans

It is kind of hard to argue that certain civilizations like Rome didn't have a tremendous impact on the people they conquered, and it ended up being for the better in hindsight. Even though it was by the sword it could have easily been much worse. For instance, the Gauls and Germans were waring amongst themselves constantly, lived in mud huts, had little if any sanitation, no access to the teachings of ancient Greece, and so forth. With Roman rule things started to settle down and improve after they crucified a few people and assimilated the population.

Roman rule basically paved the way for many societies to go from tribal existence to modern states. And had they not done that who know how history might have played out. Perhaps Germany wouldn't become an industrial powerhouse as it is today, or at least, not in the century they did.

What you're saying kinda reminds me of that scene from the Life of Brian.

How the New American Empire Really Works!

by PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS
Great empires, such as the Roman and British, were extractive. The empires succeeded, because the value of the resources and wealth extracted from conquered lands exceeded the value of conquest and governance. The reason Rome did not extend its empire east into Germany was not the military prowess of Germanic tribes but Rome’s calculation that the cost of conquest exceeded the value of extractable resources.

The Roman empire failed, because Romans exhausted manpower and resources in civil wars fighting amongst themselves for power. The British empire failed, because the British exhausted themselves fighting Germany in two world wars.

In his book, The Rule of Empires (2010), Timothy H. Parsons replaces the myth of the civilizing empire with the truth of the extractive empire. He describes the successes of the Romans, the Umayyad Caliphate, the Spanish in Peru, Napoleon in Italy, and the British in India and Kenya in extracting resources.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/03/...-really-works/