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Old 02-11-2013, 01:13 PM   #21
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Shit, i cant even get out of bed without paying some kind of tax. There are tax bills, taxes on my non tax bills. And thats before i get out of my own front door!
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Old 02-11-2013, 01:48 PM   #22
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Have you every heard of the feudal system or the Middle Ages? Your welcome to it.
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Old 02-11-2013, 01:59 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smeblee View Post
Everybody pays tax, even the unemployed, they get taxed on benefits, and pay tax any time they purchase something..

Shit we pay for water and air here....
My basic view is what the law of the land in many countries in the past was; no taxation without representation. In effect that says that if you do not pay taxes or are a taxtaker you have not earned representation through a vote. IOW, if you do not pay for representation, you do not get it.

The logic is clear. Government is a service and services are never free. The logic is thus sound.

Payment can be made in various ways so do not think I am going after the poor. In the case of Vets, representation can be earned by serving to protect the country. Those who sometimes pay taxes and at other times take taxes would have to be looked at once a standard is set. If a person pays 15 years out of 20 for instance, he would vote. Someone who only paid 5 years out of 20 and was on the dole or public purse for 15 may not get a vote.

The point is that when more and more fall into the poor categories, their vote can and is bought by the unscrupulous politicians who are elected by promises of a raise in welfare checks.

The rich are getting richer and the poor better off and the middle is squeezed by both side and any election basically becomes a war against the middle thanks to the fact that politicians are owned by the rich.

This is unjust and unsustainable and must end.

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Old 02-11-2013, 02:02 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marinemom View Post
If taxes were collected through consumption rather than income, almost everyone would pay taxes. Those who spent the most would pay the most. Those who spent the least would pay the least. Everyone would pay taxes, and you wouldn't even need to ask the question of whether or not taxpayers should be the only ones who can vote.
True but sales taxes are regressive as the lower your income the more as a percentage of your earnings go to taxes. The rich would get richer and the poor poorer.

Do the math.

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Old 02-11-2013, 02:03 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by figatova View Post
Look at the society you have now where you're constantly being bombarded with propaganda so you consume more and unnecessarily. Look at the society you have now where corporations are in charge of government policy to get you to consume more and increase their profits at the expense of your welfare, rights, liberty and wellbeing.
Now imagine what kind of society you would have if taxes were ONLY collected through consumption.
Even if that kind of tax collection was workable and enough to cover government spending you would be living in a pretty monstrous society.
+1

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Old 02-11-2013, 02:07 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by figatova View Post
I know. I wish we also had it here.
One poster gave this.

The question for me is who should be labeled a citizen and who is a ward?

If you don't contribute you are a ward - IMO. A citizen contributes a ward does not.

You are saying that everyone in America regardless of IQ and knowledge should have the right to vote?
This guy can vote listen to his reasons. He says he likes that Barrack is black…he comments that being black is good. Does that imply being white is not? I don’t think he has the ability to make decisions that affect the nation – having a person with downs syndrome vote is the equivalent of letting pre-teens vote.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCKP-FQ3KcE

He is probably a good kid but his reasoning ability is that of a pre-teen at best. Even a high functioning person with downs needs supervision and cannot be trusted to manage their funds because they lack impulse control. It’s a symptom of the disorder in the DSVM.

I think that it is the majority of voters fall somewhere in between Dan (the boy in the video) and those who have some basic reasoning ability - that is what got us in the mess we are in. This kid is motivated by emotion like so many are - he is simply parroting the meme he' heard in the media, nothing more.

There is also a thought that a Democracy will only last until the people learn that they can vote themselves money from the treasury. Again, prophecy coming true.

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Old 02-11-2013, 02:11 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duckmanlivesagain View Post
loved the socrates arguement reminds me of "when the forefathers wrote the constitution" blah blah that i hear.

yeah they had other problems to deal with. We have bigger and more complex ones now.

The vote is there to enable every citizen to feel like they're all together in that country, and that the sum of their wishes is the right decision for everyone.

That being said your average vote is a complete moron that more often then not doesn't bother to vote
Unless on the dole and a raise is promised.

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Old 02-11-2013, 02:13 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dad61 View Post
Would it matter? The voting system is rigged anyways.
Off topic but yes. Not necessarily illegally but certainly rigged as the rich control the media and thus the minds of the voters.

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Old 02-11-2013, 02:15 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stmichael View Post
The OP brings up some good points. Eventually if voters continually vote themselves a pay raise or benefit increases something catastrophic will happen will happen to the economy.

Like the USSR back in the 50's-80's was a world power and industrial giant. Everyone had tons of ruble's saved up but there was nothing to buy because world traders could not exchange rubles for anything of value....and the countries politically micro-managed industry couldn't even make adequate amounts of toilet paper. Goods were so scarce state secrets were sold for a pair of blue jeans.

With our military being constantly diminished sooner or later we'll suffer a crushing overseas defeat and that brings about the end of the petrol dollar...

...or the underfunded and manned military can't respond a the latest crises and leadership is forced to use strategic weapons to maintain the status quo and world chaos ensues.
+ 1

Good to have a good mind on board.

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Old 02-11-2013, 02:21 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Setanta View Post
"Let taxpayers vote"

Why note take that to its logical conclusion and give more votes to those who pay more tax. The direction of the nation will be decided by plastic surgeons and ortho-dontists.
That will give us a nicely balanced society... Yeah right.
Should those who contribute more to our systems have more say in what the system does?

I think so as that would build on success instead of failure.

Not to denigrate any but compare the vote of your surgeon --- that is negated --- by those like this and wonder about it.

One poster gave this.

The question for me is who should be labeled a citizen and who is a ward?

If you don't contribute you are a ward - IMO. A citizen contributes a ward does not.

You are saying that everyone in America regardless of IQ and knowledge should have the right to vote?
This guy can vote listen to his reasons. He says he likes that Barrack is black…he comments that being black is good. Does that imply being white is not? I don’t think he has the ability to make decisions that affect the nation – having a person with downs syndrome vote is the equivalent of letting pre-teens vote.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCKP-FQ3KcE

He is probably a good kid but his reasoning ability is that of a pre-teen at best. Even a high functioning person with downs needs supervision and cannot be trusted to manage their funds because they lack impulse control. It’s a symptom of the disorder in the DSVM.

I think that it is the majority of voters fall somewhere in between Dan (the boy in the video) and those who have some basic reasoning ability - that is what got us in the mess we are in. This kid is motivated by emotion like so many are - he is simply parroting the meme he' heard in the media, nothing more.

There is also a thought that a Democracy will only last until the people learn that they can vote themselves money from the treasury. Again, prophecy coming true.

Regards
DL

P S. The rich already have more of a say.
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