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Old 04-11-2016, 12:55 PM   #1
Greatest I am
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Default Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

Some religions like Christianity and Islam teach that people are condemned by God and that we have to work to gain salvation. God created us ill, and orders us to be well, on pain of tremendous eternal torture and eventual death. This teaching follows the one where we are told that God is unknowable, unfathomable and works in mysterious ways. This makes the notions of condemnation and the need for salvation obvious lies.

Gnostic Christianity does not use this type of carrot and stick motivation in its theology. We are Universalists and only see a heaven, no hell. We think God too good a creator to ever have to condemn anyone. Our God is a winner, not the loser God that Christianity has invented. All the Gods are myths created to help us reach our highest human potential and are only tools to open our inner eye. Our single eye as Jesus calls it.

How we can forgive ourselves is that as Universalists, we have tied righteousness to equality. The logic trail from there says that if God is to punish anyone, he would have to punish everyone as everyone contributes to what we all are.

For instance. If God were to punish Hitler, he would have to revue what made Hitler what he ended up being. God would follow his time line and see perhaps that his parents spanked him and God would know what we know today, that spanking creates resentment and a delinquent attitude. That beginning would see Hitler's parents setting his mindset which eventually flowered into his tyrannical nature. So to be just, God would automatically have to punish Hitler's parents. That same logic would apply to everyone who contributed or facilitated Hitler's rise to infamy.

So for you and me to blame just ourselves for what we are would be quite unjust. This is not to say that we hold no responsibility for our actions, just not all of them.

Do you agree that the need of Salvation promoted by religions is an evil lie?

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Old 04-12-2016, 12:34 AM   #2
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Salvationism is the currency of their trade. The lie that is at the heart of the matter is original sin. Daniel Quinn explains it all quite clearly. Cheers.
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Old 04-12-2016, 05:42 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by gswifty View Post
Salvationism is the currency of their trade. The lie that is at the heart of the matter is original sin. Daniel Quinn explains it all quite clearly. Cheers.
I will have to look him up but think I will agree as I see that invention from greed as why Christianity changed the Jewish moral of the story of Eden from man's elevation and success of God to mans failure and the failure of God to start us up properly.

I speak to some of that notion in the link below. Please opine on it.

http://forums.liveleak.com/showthread.php?t=117503

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Old 04-12-2016, 06:55 PM   #4
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Thanks for the thoughtful response. For the record, here's my answer.

http://www.ishmael.org/Interaction/Q...CFM?Record=619
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Old 04-12-2016, 07:09 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by gswifty View Post
Thanks for the thoughtful response. For the record, here's my answer.

http://www.ishmael.org/Interaction/Q...CFM?Record=619
That was not your answer but thanks anyway.

It says that Jews created the notion of the fall and it is wrong.

Note that in Jewry, there is n original sin. There is only Original Virtue.

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/...tive-theodicy/

If you can argue for the link you gave, please do so.

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Old 04-12-2016, 08:06 PM   #6
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That was not your answer but thanks anyway.

It says that Jews created the notion of the fall and it is wrong.

Note that in Jewry, there is n original sin. There is only Original Virtue.

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/...tive-theodicy/

If you can argue for the link you gave, please do so.

Regards
DL
So the Jews did not believe in original sin yet are still considered a Salvationist religion.
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Old 04-12-2016, 08:08 PM   #7
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Btw, arguing or debating isn't my thing. If you care to enlightenment me further on my path of enlightenment than I will listen. Otherwise, I have things to do.
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Old 04-12-2016, 08:10 PM   #8
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Even (some) Atheists believe Man is inherently bad, their own form of original sin.
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Old 04-12-2016, 08:17 PM   #9
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So the Jews did not believe in original sin yet are still considered a Salvationist religion.
Judaism's Rejection of Original Sin



Saint Augustine (354-430) was the first theologian to teach that man is born into this world in a state of sin. The basis of his belief is from the Bible (Genesis 3:17-19) where Adam is described as having disobeyed G-d by eating the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowledge in the Garden of Eden. This, the first sin of man, became known as original sin.

Many Christians today, particularly members of the Anglican, Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, and Presbyterian Churches, subscribe to this belief. They maintain that the sin of Adam was transferred to all future generations, tainting even the unborn. Substantiation for this view is found in the New Testament (Romans 5:12) where Paul says, "Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. By one man's disobedience many were made sinners."

Christianity believes that only through the acceptance of Jesus that the "grace" of G-d can return to man. A Christian need only believe in Jesus to be saved; nothing else is required of her.

The doctrine of original sin is totally unacceptable to Jews (as it is to Christian sects such as Baptists and Assemblies of G-d). Jews believe that man enters the world free of sin, with a soul that is pure and innocent and untainted. While there were some Jewish teachers in Talmudic times who believed that death was a punishment brought upon mankind on account of Adam's sin, the dominant view by far was that man sins because he is not a perfect being, and not, as Christianity teaches, because he is inherently sinful.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...ginal_Sin.html

News to me as well.
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Old 04-13-2016, 06:36 PM   #10
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So the Jews did not believe in original sin yet are still considered a Salvationist religion.
Their savior is expected to be a man and not a God. That man is to live and rule. Not die and never return.

The Jewish oral tradition says that a Rabbi can overrule the written Torah and God himself.

Jews, like Gnostic Christians like me, have always seen God as a man and the best rules and laws to live life by. I do not see us or Jews as believing in anything supernatural.

Have a look at their old way of thinking instead of the idol worshiping that Christianity and Islam now do.

http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

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