Freedom or the belief of freedom

[nicoal2]

Originally Posted by zero-g

Used to be the biggest threat that kept them in check.
Now it's as corrupt as the politicians you say it keeps in check.Most of these "scandals" are agenda driven and sensationalized for the same reason.

Politicians use the media, not the other way around.

Originally Posted by Duckmanlivesagain

Anyone of them can be taken out by a decent big time scandal, just look a Bill Clinton he was the president of the most powerful country in the world and fell like the rest of them.

Originally Posted by seanjo

I don't think politicians should lose their job because of scandals like shagging around, they should lose their jobs because they are shit at it! (Their job that is)

And there is no such thing as a real free press...the press is just a tool for your Murdoch's to control politicians!

I agree with zero-g. Politicians know about these scandals long before the press does, but hold onto the information until the time it's needed. It's their ace in the hole. Scandal breaks, enemies taken down, new positions filled. Like chess, sorta.

[lipskip]

Yeah, you guys ran the shop correctly for almost the entire twentieth century.

Good job.

[Duckmanlivesagain]

Originally Posted by nicoal2

I agree with zero-g. Politicians know about these scandals long before the press does, but hold onto the information until the time it's needed. It's their ace in the hole. Scandal breaks, enemies taken down, new positions filled. Like chess, sorta.

Kinda like that but any can tell you that works in that field (i'm thinking of Hayden here) will tell you, it's extremely difficult to keep a secret now. The best thing they can do is damage control and information spin.


All this hiding secrets and cover-ups and things arn't really possible when everyone has a cameraphone with sound recording and video evidence. And politicians are smart enough to know how not to perjure themselves.

[nicoal2]

Originally Posted by Duckmanlivesagain

Kinda like that but any can tell you that works in that field (i'm thinking of Hayden here) will tell you, it's extremely difficult to keep a secret now. The best thing they can do is damage control and information spin.


All this hiding secrets and cover-ups and things arn't really possible when everyone has a cameraphone with sound recording and video evidence. And politicians are smart enough to know how not to perjure themselves.

I also think there are a LOT of people doing their very best to keep those scandals secret, to protect their own interests. Wiping off the fingerprints.

[Duckmanlivesagain]

Originally Posted by nicoal2

I also think there are a LOT of people doing their very best to keep those scandals secret, to protect their own interests. Wiping off the fingerprints.

I'm sure a few politicians have "fixers" for them, but the smarter ones are realising that a small scandal (cheating on your wife) explodes the second someone is found trying to cover it up.

The messy cover up is worse than the disease. Sure you can wipe fingerprints or get rid of DNA evidence or hush up a couple people with money or threats. But running around trying to control the world is extremely expensive and difficult.

Some of the smarter politicians are cottoning on that prevention is better than cure and you don't have to hide information, just adjust peoples reaction to it.

THAT is when journalism comes in and clears up that mess......idealy

[ericredbeard]

Originally Posted by Duckmanlivesagain

I see a disturbing lack of clarification over the word freedom.

How do you know it's a good thing or we should have it if you don't know what it is?

Perhaps "freedom" can be defined sufficiently in reference to the Declaration Of Independence, which opens with these words:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness..."

Throughout history, both rulers and governments have deprived their peoples of their very lives without due process of legitimate laws (those which recognize peoples' equality before the law). That is the antithesis of freedom.

These same rulers and governments have also unjustly (without the consent of the governed) deprived their peoples of their Liberty: restricting their movements, their choices, their means of choice (seizing their rightfully earned monies through taxes) and their freedom of expression. These actions are attacks on the peoples' freedom.

When these attacks interfere with the peoples' pursuit of happiness, without their consent, without due process, and without providing both a compelling reason for their continuance and delivery of commensurate compensation, this state is in conflict with freedom. Freedom is that state in which the People are minimally governed in such a way to maximize their pursuits of Life, Liberty, and Happiness, in a manner to which they freely consent (without coercion). If you prefer a European triad, then the French Revolution provides "Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité".

Americans are rightfully proud of the Constitutional foundations of their government because they expressly require the government to respect the citizens' inalienable rights. Many governments have no such respect. Of course you can prattle about the "right to fast food, porn, video games, abortions, etc., etc., and the decadent decline of western civilization. Those issues are another matter entirely: what people ought to do with their freedom. But first, they have to have that freedom in order to squander it on indulgences. Many citizens the world over would love to be able to have that choice. I think that most people in Europe needlessly take offence at Americans boasting about their freedom, thinking that Americans are necessarily comparing their freedoms with European society, when in fact Americans and Europeans are both generally light years ahead of the rest of the world. Rather than comparing American freedoms with European society, how about comparing both to Africa, or China, or the Middle East, or Southeast Asia? We have it made. Why take offense at Americans being glad that they have it comparatively good? It isn't about you Europe, unless you try to make it all about a pissing contest. The simple truth is that citizens of the West have it better, and that includes Americans and most Europeans.

[rpgray]

Originally Posted by Skwint_hed

I don't get it I really don't - I cant think of anything you can do that I cant - maybe the particulars would be different but nothing that takes away my freedom

In fact, I’m guessing I am more free.

Prove me wrong - what makes the US of A so special in regards to freedom.

Many great myths have some amount of truth to them. First the true part: once upon a time the USA WAS a free country, if not the most free at least darn close. Another true statement is that, if the criminals in Washington D.C. who claim to represent us were to actually follow the written U.S. Constitution we would still be the freest country on Earth.

Now, what is NOT true is that we are currently the freest country on Earth. I do not know where you live but unless it is North Korea, Saudi Arabia, or Cuba chances are you do live in a more free country than the United States at the moment.

Much has been made of the fact that the United States has one has one of the largest incarcerated populations per capita on planet Earth. There is a simple reason for this – we have so many laws and regulations on the books. It only makes logical sense that if there are more laws there will be more people who break those laws.

Most Federal (directed from Washington, D.C.) laws are unconstitutional but our weak tea Federal courts do little to knock most of them down.

I hope we can once again become a free country but without a TRUE revolution I am skeptical this will occur.

By the way, both Republicans and Democrats have contributed to this loss of freedom.