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Old 12-02-2017, 08:23 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by zero-g View Post
Pretty sure the 239 DOESN'T have any external safety as it were . Most Pistols used by LE don't.
That said, it's a double /action single action . Without going into great detail , that means you would "normally" have to squeeze that trigger with the 10 pound pressure to make the hammer at the rear of the weapon pull back to a fire position and release while firing that first round. Imagine "cocking" back the hammer , but done with the trigger, not your thumb . Upon firing the weapon cycles and the hammer is then racked back for the next round , and you are now in a "single action" where the hammer is already back and can be fired with half or less the trigger pull.

NOBODY carries or stores a weapon like that in the cocked position.
A trigger weight can be modified or trigger with lighter pull installed, but there is no such thing to my knowledge as a "hair trigger" in double action mode, as you need a certain amount of pressure to pull that hammer back with the trigger.

Sig for the most part are a higher quality firearm , not some cheapy that just anyone buys . Not sure if it has the "hammer block" between the hammer and firing pin in the DA position or not , but even if the weapon was struck in the rear from a drop , it would not be firing in a downward angle where it would ricochet off the ground, it would fire in an upward angle.

I find an accidental discharge of that weapon highly unlikely.

.02
Thank you for explaining to me how the trigger works. I had read that most people said it was highly unlikely that the gun could have fired by accident, but I couldn't find a technical viewpoint that was woman orientated English.
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Old 12-02-2017, 08:28 PM   #32
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I'm not sure if this is true, but the rumor is the jury foreman said the defense attorney said "If you're sick of Trump's shit, you must acquit". The jury was unaware that the murderer had been deported five times and that he had seven prior felonies on his record. The murderer's legal status was also not disclosed to the jury. The defense counsel made the entire trial a referendum on Trump.

I don't know about any of you, but very relevant and pertinent details were hidden from the jury and the actually irrelevant and immaterial partisan politics were injected into the trial's proceedings.

The judicial branch of the U.S. is beyond corrupt. It's colluding with foreign and domestic enemies to genocide American culture, the American Christian religion and oppress the American people.
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Old 12-06-2017, 10:36 PM   #33
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The jurors are pretty dumb, the defense attorney misled them, the judge cherry picked the interpretation of the law used and the prosecutor either didn't or wasn't allowed to introduce relevant information.

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was an alternate juror in the Kate Steinle murder trial in San Francisco. I didn’t get a vote, but I saw all of the evidence and the jury instructions, and I discussed the verdict with the jury after it was delivered. Most of the public reaction I've seen has been surprise, confusion and derision. If these were among your reactions as well, I'm writing to explain to you why the jury was right to make the decision that it did.

I’m not a lawyer, but I understood the law that was read to us in this case. Defendants in this country have the right to a presumption of innocence, which means that if there is a reasonable interpretation of the evidence that favors a defendant, the jury must accept that interpretation over any others that incriminate him. This principle is a pillar of the American justice system, and it was a significant part of our jury instructions.

Jose Ines Garcia Zarate, the undocumented immigrant who was accused of killing Steinle, was charged with first degree murder and the lesser included offenses of second degree murder and involuntary manslaughter. When the prosecution rested its case, it seemed clear to me that the evidence didn’t support the requirements of premeditation or malice aforethought (intentional recklessness or killing) for the murder charges. After having heard the evidence, I agreed with the defense’s opinion that the murder charges should not have been brought. The evidence didn't show that Garcia Zarate intended to kill anyone.

These are some of the facts that were laid out to us: Zarate had no motive and no recorded history of violence. The shot he fired from his chair hit the ground 12 feet in front of him before ricocheting a further 78 feet to hit Steinle. The damage to the bullet indicated a glancing impact during the ricochet, so it seems to have been shot from a low height. The gun, a Sig Sauer P239 pistol, is a backup emergency weapon used by law enforcement that has a light trigger mode and no safety. (The jury members asked to feel the trigger pull of the gun during deliberation, but the judge wouldn’t allow it, for reasons that aren’t clear to us.) The pixelated video footage of the incident that we were shown, taken from the adjacent pier, shows a group of six people spending half an hour at that same chair setting down and picking up objects a mere 30 minutes before Garcia Zarate arrived there.

There is a reasonable interpretation here that favors the defendant: He found the gun at the seat, picked it up out of curiosity, and accidentally caused it to fire. As a scared, homeless man wanted by immigration enforcement, he threw the gun in the water and walked away. The presumption of innocence, as stated in the jury instructions, required the jury to select this interpretation because it is reasonable and favors the defendant.

But why the manslaughter acquittal? Most of the confusion I've encountered has been over this part of the verdict, and it does seem to me personally that manslaughter is the appropriate charge for Steinle’s killing. However, given the evidence and the law presented in this trial, it is clear to me that the jury made the right decision.

The involuntary manslaughter charge that the jury was read included two key requirements: 1) A crime was committed in the act that caused death; 2) The defendant acted with "criminal negligence"—he did something that an ordinary person would have known was likely to lead to someone's death.


The jury members were not free to select the crime for part (1)—they had to use the one chosen by the prosecution, and the prosecution chose that crime to be the "brandishing," or waving with menace, of a weapon. As a juror, I found this choice puzzling, because the prosecutor presented absolutely zero evidence of brandishing during the trial. I don’t think we even heard the word “brandishing” until it was read as part of the charge during the jury instructions at the trial's end. No witnesses ever saw the defendant holding a gun, much less brandishing it. Given that baffling choice by the prosecution, the manslaughter charge was a nonstarter for the jury. Had a different precursor crime been chosen—for instance, the unlawful possession of a firearm by a felon—the outcome might have been different.

Even in that case, however, it is not clear to me that part (2) of the manslaughter charge was proved. Only a single particle of gunshot residue was found on the defendant’s hands, which seems to support his repeated claim that the gun was wrapped in some sort of fabric when he picked it up and caused it to fire. If he did not know the object was a gun, it is a stretch to claim that it was criminal negligence for him to pick it up.

The jury did convict Garcia Zarate of the separate charge of illegal possession of a firearm, which indicates that the members felt it to be an unreasonable conclusion that he didn’t know he was holding a gun. He was in the seat where he claims he found it for about 20 minutes prior to the shooting, and he made some statements during interrogation that seemed to indicate that he had known what the item was. Without the benefit of being able to re-examine the evidence during deliberation, I’m not sure that I would consider that evidence to constitute proof beyond a reasonable doubt, but knowing these jurors, I would trust them to have made an accurate judgment if the manslaughter charge had survived the first requirement.

I have come away from this experience with a strong sense of respect for the jurors and their objective handling of a sensitive case under the national spotlight. I hope that I would have acted with the same level of maturity.
Source:
https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...t-botch-216016
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Last edited by Aquina1300; 12-06-2017 at 11:07 PM.
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Old 12-07-2017, 12:21 AM   #34
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wouldn't allow them to feel the light trigger because its not , as I explained earlier.
its a back up because it is more compact than the full size duty weapon.

*edit
I should edit this and my earlier post about the double action trigger. It can be lightened up a bit , but with a trade off in reliability (potentially) , as you use a lighter spring for the hammer which effects the amount of pressure to pull it back. Though it also effects how hard the hammer strikes the firing pin.

That said, I've still never seen a hair trigger double action as it were.Pretty sure someone like eric or Gerry would probably know better
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:51 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zero-g View Post
wouldn't allow them to feel the light trigger because its not , as I explained earlier.
its a back up because it is more compact than the full size duty weapon.

*edit
I should edit this and my earlier post about the double action trigger. It can be lightened up a bit , but with a trade off in reliability (potentially) , as you use a lighter spring for the hammer which effects the amount of pressure to pull it back. Though it also effects how hard the hammer strikes the firing pin.

That said, I've still never seen a hair trigger double action as it were.Pretty sure someone like eric or Gerry would probably know better
ARGHHHH, it looks like the more lawyer-y side of the dem pundit class is right.......The prosecutor overreached and put the emphasis on homicide charges that needed to prove intent and sacrificed the more provable and lesser charge of manslaughter. I'm still going to go with the fact that lefty San Fran might have had the prosecutor do that on purpose. This is after all, the city that had a police chief that essentially said "sanctuary today, sanctuary tomorrow, sanctuary forever".
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Old 12-07-2017, 10:00 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by philomath View Post
Only in San Francisco could this happen. Dat guy is guilty azz hell of her murder.
Seems pretty obvious to me it was unintentional. they didn't know each other and he wasn't trying to rob her or anything, he had no reason to just randomly shoot and kill her. involuntary manslaughter, at best.
I do think he was reckless with the gun, tho - the fact that he got it by breaking into a police car and then decided to use it after taking some sleeping pills he'd found in the trash. So I do believe he bears some responsibility. But I definitely don't think he intended to shoot her, let alone kill her. I think he was high as fuck on those pills and maybe other shit, too (who knows?) when that gun went off. I think he may have been too out of it to even realize the safety was off.
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Old 12-07-2017, 10:16 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by slacker- View Post
Seems pretty obvious to me it was unintentional. they didn't know each other and he wasn't trying to rob her or anything, he had no reason to just randomly shoot and kill her. involuntary manslaughter, at best.
I do think he was reckless with the gun, tho - the fact that he got it by breaking into a police car and then decided to use it after taking some sleeping pills he'd found in the trash. So I do believe he bears some responsibility. But I definitely don't think he intended to shoot her, let alone kill her. I think he was high as fuck on those pills and maybe other shit, too (who knows?) when that gun went off. I think he may have been too out of it to even realize the safety was off.
Do you think he should have been guilty for manslaughter?
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Old 12-07-2017, 10:23 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by slacker- View Post
Seems pretty obvious to me it was unintentional. they didn't know each other and he wasn't trying to rob her or anything, he had no reason to just randomly shoot and kill her. involuntary manslaughter, at best.
I do think he was reckless with the gun, tho - the fact that he got it by breaking into a police car and then decided to use it after taking some sleeping pills he'd found in the trash. So I do believe he bears some responsibility. But I definitely don't think he intended to shoot her, let alone kill her. I think he was high as fuck on those pills and maybe other shit, too (who knows?) when that gun went off. I think he may have been too out of it to even realize the safety was off.
that firearm has no external safety.
but had he not stolen it in the first place, and further more not been hete in the first place , this whole thing would never have happened.
His sentence is a joke and I'm glad he's to be brought up on federal charges with some time attached.
I also put some of the blame on the city for not handing him over to the feds as they were directed and instead just let him go prior to the shooting. I hope the family brings and wins a civil suit against the city / police dept.
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Old 12-07-2017, 10:46 PM   #39
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The prosecution fucked up
They knew how Jurisprudence works
Perhaps they thought they could convince the Jury the defendant was an expert ricochet shot
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Old 12-08-2017, 12:56 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by slacker- View Post
Seems pretty obvious to me it was unintentional. they didn't know each other and he wasn't trying to rob her or anything, he had no reason to just randomly shoot and kill her. involuntary manslaughter, at best.
I do think he was reckless with the gun, tho - the fact that he got it by breaking into a police car and then decided to use it after taking some sleeping pills he'd found in the trash. So I do believe he bears some responsibility. But I definitely don't think he intended to shoot her, let alone kill her. I think he was high as fuck on those pills and maybe other shit, too (who knows?) when that gun went off. I think he may have been too out of it to even realize the safety was off.

I mean,,, you do have a logical point of view as I said earlier in this thread when someone else brought a similar point up. Both are correct, and logical. You know me, its easiest for my widdle brain to comprehend logic.

I never thought that he actually tried, or intended to kill her. I'm almost sure it was not intentional. Thats why there are varying levels of responsibility(Crimes), and variable sanctions(penalty's) for each respective level a person who causes the death of another citizen in this country will have to pay or suffer if they commit those crimes. Hell, most country's for that matter, have similar penalty's for these kinda crimes.. That would be first degree murder in anyone's court(Well Usually) if he intended to cause her death. Understanding that, my question becomes, what is the level of sanction (punishment) is warranted in this case, considering all the aggravating factors? In my mind, It sure as hell isn't just nothing. Again IMHO, he is guilty of at least some lower crime that is attached with the unintentional loss of that young ladies life.

All his family got from the legal process for their loss caused by a well documented criminal that was not even suppose to be in this country was, Thanks for playing.

Hell, If he had been driving a car all drugged up and caused her death, that alone in most places would make him guilty of some level lower than murder. The aggravating factors of the case would again and rightly effect the level of conviction. Everything from unintentional death by vehicle all the way up to one level under capitol murder. It should never just be nodda. He is at least guilty of some level of causing a persons death.

EDIT.

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