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View Poll Results: Do You Believe in the Possibility of a Non Theist Deity?
Yes 23 35.38%
No 36 55.38%
Other 6 9.23%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-05-2012, 07:12 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by seanjo View Post
What was the probability of the big bang before it happened?
Many cosmological models have been suggested to explain the big-bang. Depends on the model. Note that all these models are well defined and describable in maths and physics.

If deity refers to a non-physical entity that exists and operates under a dualistic assumption of mind as a separate thing to matter, then sure, its possible. But then it can't even in theory be measurable or inferred from physical observations. Which is why, given the infinite number of physical explanations that infer the universe, i'd say a deity is possible, but with probability zero.
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Old 07-05-2012, 07:31 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by fazzazz View Post
Many cosmological models have been suggested to explain the big-bang. Depends on the model. Note that all these models are well defined and describable in maths and physics.

If deity refers to a non-physical entity that exists and operates under a dualistic assumption of mind as a separate thing to matter, then sure, its possible. But then it can't even in theory be measurable or inferred from physical observations. Which is why, given the infinite number of physical explanations that infer the universe, i'd say a deity is possible, but with probability zero.
Stop making sense damn you!
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Old 07-05-2012, 07:39 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by fazzazz View Post
Many cosmological models have been suggested to explain the big-bang. Depends on the model. Note that all these models are well defined and describable in maths and physics.

If deity refers to a non-physical entity that exists and operates under a dualistic assumption of mind as a separate thing to matter, then sure, its possible. But then it can't even in theory be measurable or inferred from physical observations. Which is why, given the infinite number of physical explanations that infer the universe, i'd say a deity is possible, but with probability zero.
I didn't ask for theories about the big bang, the Standard model only explains what happened a few nano seconds after the big bang was initiated, I asked what the probability of the big bang was before it happened!
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Old 07-05-2012, 08:04 PM   #24
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I didn't ask for theories about the big bang, the Standard model only explains what happened a few nano seconds after the big bang was initiated, I asked what the probability of the big bang was before it happened!
lol. you're all over the place.

the standard model together with the uncertainty principle are involved in models of baby universe formation occurring in vacuum. the standard model is a) merely a part of any particular hypothesis regarding universe formation that lets face it, requires some sort of theory of gravitation unified with a quantum field model explaining the formation of dense singularities such as a bing bang and b) there are many candidate hypotheses about universe formation, such as chaotic expansion models giving rise to a frothy space time of bubble universes, computational physics hypotheses invoking emulation on turing machine, or hyper-computation devices to describe nested universes within a single bubble of space-time, as well as explanations that render the question as senseless, such as hawkings model that remove the big-bang entirely from the physical picture, so there is no 'before' nor even an edge of time.

Last edited by fazzazz; 07-05-2012 at 08:06 PM.
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Old 07-05-2012, 08:14 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by seanjo View Post
What was the probability of the big bang before it happened?
Quote:
Originally Posted by fazzazz View Post
Many cosmological models have been suggested to explain the big-bang. Depends on the model. Note that all these models are well defined and describable in maths and physics.

If deity refers to a non-physical entity that exists and operates under a dualistic assumption of mind as a separate thing to matter, then sure, its possible. But then it can't even in theory be measurable or inferred from physical observations. Which is why, given the infinite number of physical explanations that infer the universe, i'd say a deity is possible, but with probability zero.
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanjo View Post
I didn't ask for theories about the big bang, the Standard model only explains what happened a few nano seconds after the big bang was initiated, I asked what the probability of the big bang was before it happened!
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Originally Posted by fazzazz View Post
lol. you're all over the place.

the standard model together with the uncertainty principle are involved in models of baby universe formation occurring in vacuum. the standard model is a) merely a part of any particular hypothesis regarding universe formation that lets face it, requires some sort of theory of gravitation unified with a quantum field model explaining the formation of dense singularities such as a bing bang and b) there are many candidate hypotheses about universe formation, such as chaotic expansion models giving rise to a frothy space time of bubble universes, computational physics hypotheses invoking emulation on turing machine, or hyper-computation devices to describe nested universes within a single bubble of space-time, as well as explanations that render the question as senseless, such as hawkings model that remove the big-bang entirely from the physical picture, so there is no 'before' nor even an edge of time.
Erm...I'm not all over the place, I asked a relatively simple question to answer, you've decided to type shite that has nothing to do with the question...I shall give you the answer to my question, the answer is I/WE DON'T KNOW!!

Scientists do not know what came before, they do not know how the stuff that became the universe came into being, they do not know what started off the "big bang" they don't even really know if it was a big bang, they have evidence to show it may have been a big bang but that is all, no positive proof.

I am willing to believe in the possibility of a deity, I don't need probabilities, I just need to know there are unanswered questions.
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Old 07-05-2012, 08:23 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by seanjo View Post
Erm...I'm not all over the place, I asked a relatively simple question to answer, you've decided to type shite that has nothing to do with the question...I shall give you the answer to my question, the answer is I/WE DON'T KNOW!!

Scientists do not know what came before, they do not know how the stuff that became the universe came into being, they do not know what started off the "big bang" they don't even really know if it was a big bang, they have evidence to show it may have been a big bang but that is all, no positive proof.

I am willing to believe in the possibility of a deity, I don't need probabilities, I just need to know there are unanswered questions.
correct, scientists don't know. That's why there are many suggestions. What you're not doing is providing one. Saying "i don't know" is different from saying "i consider a deity as both a possible and a probable explanation". For a start, you first need to define deity as something tangible, like an algorithm, or a set of ontological primitives such as fields describable by a periodic equation, or pieces of vibrating long string. Until you do that, all you're doing is appealing to the unknown, which by definition, isn't even a hypothesis.
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Old 07-05-2012, 08:26 PM   #27
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correct, scientists don't know. That's why there are many suggestions. What you're not doing is providing one. Saying "i don't know" is different from saying "i consider a deity as both a possible and a probable explanation". For a start, you first need to define deity as something tangible, like an algorithm, or a set of ontological primitives such as fields describable by a periodic equation, or pieces of long string. Until you do that, all you're doing is appealing to the unknown, which by definition, isn't a hypothesis.

Never said probable, I said possible...and you keep jumping into psycho babble, I don't know if there is a deity and have no idea how to define a deity, but I still think there is a possibility of a deity, but in the end I do not know.
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Old 07-05-2012, 08:40 PM   #28
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My only god is mother nature.

Agnostic all the way.
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Old 07-05-2012, 09:33 PM   #29
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That is, is the watchmaker god of the Deists possible?

Well, he's possible to imagine. But as far as all-powerful beings go, he's about as compelling as leftover oatmeal.
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Old 07-05-2012, 10:00 PM   #30
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about as compelling as leftover oatmeal.

*Sprinkles it with nuts / dried fruit and makes random promises to anyone who will swallow it*
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