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Old 05-22-2018, 12:45 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Aquina1300 View Post
The men you are describing are probably not mass murdering psychos.

I'd say the men you are describing aren't very much different from needy, clingy, desperate women. Men have problems getting rid of women they don't like, too. When they refuse to give or do something for a woman, women get bitchy too. frankly, there are ugly gross women out there who think they are at least an eight and they try to glob onto men and emotionally manipulate them.

There's really no difference between the men you're describing and the women I just described. I don't know if it's over privilege or just a low class upbringing. I've met very wealthy people and poor people who seem to have the same distorted weird emotionally manipulating behaviors. I hardly ever meet anyone in the solid middle class who behaves that way.

The difference, and this is the crux of the matter, a woman isn't going to win against a man in physical altercations. Women have almost a zero chance of overpowering a man if he should become violent. it's for that reason, that I do favor a certain common sense approach and recognition of that fact in our courts, schools, work places, apartments etc. Women do need protection from the men who get violent.

I suppose there's another big difference too, men are going to try to get sexual with women. I don't know if you read about Aziz Ansari's disastrous date with a woman but it's an excellent example of a man's pushy sexual behavior. It was part of the MeToo movement collection of stories, but in that case, I'm sure the woman thought she was entirely innocent and Aziz was totally pushy and rude. However, I don't think she wasn't aware of the signals she was giving him. She was the one who originally came up to him and ditched her boyfriend to spend the evening with him. When they had a date, he was hurrying through the dinner so they could go back to his place. She could have spoken up then but she wasn't assertive enough or misread the cues. When they got to his place, they petted each other, talked about photography, petted some more and well, read the article. It's a classic she said, he said thing. Read about that date and realize, trying to get a grown man who is single and looking for sex to not act the way Aziz did would be pretty difficult. Men are programmed to think that way and when they find an opportunity, a lot of single men are going to try for it.

The feminist in the article you brought out, may possibly think Aziz should have been taught better how to respect women's space and in a certain sense, I agree with her. Aziz wasn't very smooth and he was pushy. On the other hand, women also have a duty to be clear to men. The woman Aziz dated was sending the most crazy mixed signals ever. She thinks it was a sort of rape, but she has him call a cab and waited in his apartment. A bad date sometimes leaves a person feeling icky, maybe even violated but that doesn't mean there's a rape. Women have a responsibility to be clear about their feelings and intentions. They also have to be aware that for most men, they're going to try for it. We're great, as women, at using words and sometimes, we got to use the tough ones too. If anything, what we need to do is teach our daughters that it's okay to hurt a man's feelings if he wants something from her that she doesn't want to give. I like that feminist thing going around about not forcing girls to hug relatives or parent's friends on holidays. The problem with girls is that they're people pleasers and thus sometimes run into a problem between being "nice" and saying what they mean or being torn between the two emotionally. Maybe it's a better idea for mothers to teach their daughters when to be "nice" and when to be a "bitch": when it is okay to hurt feelings and when it's not.


In any case, the goal of raising a son isn't much different from raising a daughter.
I agree that it’s also important to teach women to be assertive about their feelings, but in cases where women are assertive, it’s important that men learn to react appropriately to that when they get their feelings hurt.

I agree that there are clingy, desperate women out there that are hard to get rid of and try cheap emotional manipulations to get what they want from a man. I disagree that it’s the same, tho, bc women don’t typically expect that kinda emotional validation/comfort from men they’ve just met or are only somewhat acquainted with. Women who are like that typically only get like that with ex-boyfriends and the like, so I’d say men deal with it far less often, from far less women, than women deal with it from men. Women don’t typically feel entitled to any sort of emotional reassurance or validation from men they just met or are only somewhat acquainted with. But many men do expect and feel entitled to that sorta thing.

And it’s more understandable for boundaries to get confused and crossed when you’re dealing w/someone you know very well, who you have a long history with in a relationship, IMO, bc past history w/them has come to shape your expectations. It’s less understandable to have such a warped sense of entitlement towards someone you just met or barely know, which is what many men have. Not all guys, of course, but I think a lot of guys who don’t get much action from chicks are that way. The school shooter in TX sounds like he was that way. But what do you think his crush was at fault for?

I haven’t read the thing about Aziz, I will and I’ll come back and comment.
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Old 05-22-2018, 12:47 AM   #12
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Old 05-22-2018, 05:24 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Aquina1300 View Post
Here's the Aziz Ansari article. I actually feel bad for the guy to have his bad date thrown all over the internet but it's funny too.

https://babe.net/2018/01/13/aziz-ansari-28355

I feel sorry for the woman too, but mostly, I see her as a mutton head for a) sending obvious mixed signals and then blaming him for the whole thing and b) blasting it out on the internet as if she's the victim. She made herself the victim.

Rule Number One for clueless women on dates: If you have dinner and drinks with a man on a date and he invites you back to his place, he's going to try for sex. If you don't want sex but continue to hang around, he's going to try again. That is an unwritten law of dating.
Oh god, I've got many thoughts on this, I read the article and don’t get the same vibe you did at all. For one, she did NOT ditch her boyfriend to hang out with him, she was single. her date to the party sounds like he was just someone she came with or perhaps knew in the LA area, which is where the party was, where she and Aziz met. they flirted a bit and then he asked her out to dinner. They met at his place and he was apparently fine, then they walked to dinner and she said she talked the whole time and he seemed hurried. she said he abruptly asked for the check, despite the fact that her wine glass was half full and there we go, first example of thinking it's all about his needs, he didn't even bother to ask her if she wanted anything else, didn't even bother to wrap it up by letting her finish her wine after they got the check. nope, all he cared about was that HE wanted to get out of there, back to his apartment, which was 2 blocks away. so that's his first mistake, but coulda been overlooked, i guess, because up until that point, he hadn't done anything creepy or made her uncomfortable. and i'm sure she knew what going back to his place meant and she was probably open to it, if he hadn't gone about things the way he did once they got there.

the second they walked in the door, he right away jumped into things, he didn't even bother to read her mood bc HIS mood was that he wanted to fuck, right now. Aziz apparently used to make jokes that he has bad luck w/women b/c he too respectful or too nice or something, but it's quite obvious that the real reason is, when it comes to women, he is socially inept. he probably didn't get a lot of action before he got famous bc of this and so now, when he has the chance, he gets too over-zealous and fails to read the situation. you say she sent mixed signals, but as he said, he didn't even feel mixed signals, he thought everything went great! despite the fact that she repeatedly sent him non-verbal signals of being uncomfortable and straight up told him, several times, to slow down, that was feeling uncomfortable. after that, he should have backed off and let her initiate anything sexual. he probably shoulda done that, anyway, to avoid such situations, since he apparently can't read women to save his life.
he's one of those guys who can claim he thought everything went fine because he only sees what he wants to see and hears what he wants to hear, he gets so determined for the night w/her to go how he wants it to go that he completely ignores the reality of what's going on. but even if the signal IS mixed, it's better to back off and let the other person make the first move, no? bc if you're not sure, why take the chance? or, if you do decide to take your chances, then you can't complain about later being called a creep. HE set himself up for embarrassment by acting the way he did that night, IMO, and then having the audacity to walk around like he's some guy who gets it, supports the #metoo movement, wearing the TimesUp pin, writes books about how to be court women, respectfully, in the modern world, etc. she's responsible for her actions, but so is he.

looking at photos of him, you can tell he's a creep, though. something about that face and those eyes, ugh, IDK what it is but it screams CREEP to me.

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Old 05-22-2018, 05:45 AM   #14
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Oh god, I've got many thoughts on this, I read the article and donít get the same vibe you did at all. For one, she did NOT ditch her boyfriend to hang out with him, she was single. her date to the party sounds like he was just someone she came with or perhaps knew in the LA area, which is where the party was, where she and Aziz met. they flirted a bit and then he asked her out to dinner. They met at his place and he was apparently fine, then they walked to dinner and she said she talked the whole time and he seemed hurried. she said he abruptly asked for the check, despite the fact that her wine glass was half full and there we go, first example of thinking it's all about his needs, he didn't even bother to ask her if she wanted anything else, didn't even bother to wrap it up by letting her finish her wine after they got the check. nope, all he cared about was that HE wanted to get out of there, back to his apartment, which was 2 blocks away. so that's his first mistake, but coulda been overlooked, i guess, because up until that point, he hadn't done anything creepy or made her uncomfortable. and i'm sure she knew what going back to his place meant and she was probably open to it, if he hadn't gone about things the way he did once they got there.

the second they walked in the door, he right away jumped into things, he didn't even bother to read her mood bc HIS mood was that he wanted to fuck, right now. Aziz apparently used to make jokes that he has bad luck w/women b/c he too respectful or too nice or something, but it's quite obvious that the real reason is, when it comes to women, he is socially inept. he probably didn't get a lot of action before he got famous bc of this and so now, when he has the chance, he gets too over-zealous and fails to read the situation. you say she sent mixed signals, but as he said, he didn't even feel mixed signals, he thought everything went great! despite the fact that she repeatedly sent him non-verbal signals of being uncomfortable and straight up told him, several times, to slow down, that was feeling uncomfortable. after that, he should have backed off and let her initiate anything sexual. he probably shoulda done that, anyway, to avoid such situations, since he apparently can't read women to save his life.
he's one of those guys who can claim he thought everything went fine because he only sees what he wants to see and hears what he wants to hear, he gets so determined for the night w/her to go how he wants it to go that he completely ignores the reality of what's going on. but even if the signal IS mixed, it's better to back off and let the other person make the first move, no? bc if you're not sure, why take the chance? or, if you do decide to take your chances, then you can't complain about later being called a creep. HE set himself up for embarrassment by acting the way he did that night, IMO, and then having the audacity to walk around like he's some guy who gets it, supports the #metoo movement, wearing the TimesUp pin, writes books about how to be court women, respectfully, in the modern world, etc. she's responsible for her actions, but so is he.

looking at photos of him, you can tell he's a creep, though. something about that face and those eyes, ugh, IDK what it is but it screams CREEP to me.
I think that's her view of the situation. She's certainly putting Aziz Ansari in a bad light. Part of her motivation here may be that she wants to join the #metoo victims outing celebrities.

Again, yes, he probably is awkward or maybe he has a lot of women throwing themselves at him too because he's a star. I don't know.

If she wanted to finish her wine, maybe she should have insisted on it. When she said no the first time, maybe she should have left. When he didn't seem to be picking up her cues she could have made it more clear.

It's a classic he said/she said. Did you also read Aziz Ansari's response?

Men just don't pick up on other people's emotions as much as women do for the most part. it's not that they're insensitive. It's that women are more sensitive to other people's emotions, non-verbal cues etc.

Men want women to be more like men in their behavior in certain ways. Women want men to be more like women in certain ways as well. Guess what......it's not going to happen because the brains just don't work that way.

I just don't think you're ever going to find a woman who is going to get as excited about WWE wrestling as a man. In the same way, a man isn't going to cry over a baby bird that falls from it's nest the way a woman will.

There are differences. I understand that she thought she was communicating with him, but she really wasn't. She doesn't stand up for herself once and at the end of the date, highlariously, she asks him to call her cab. Furthermore, we don't know how many times Aziz Ansari's dumb or creepy approach worked. My guess is, it's probably worked a lot. That it didn't work on this particular woman can be blamed on both of them.

I don't she's the distressed virgin who is shocked that men want sex. She even admits she gave into some of the foreplay even though she didn't want to, including sucking him off. Okay, that's a problem......if she doesn't want to do it, she shouldn't do it. If she wanted to finish her glass of wine before they left, she should have insisted on finishing it.

Like I said......he may have been creepy and weird. She was also indecisive and confused.

Most people would call that, a bad date.
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Old 05-22-2018, 06:17 AM   #15
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I think that's her view of the situation. She's certainly putting Aziz Ansari in a bad light. Part of her motivation here may be that she wants to join the #metoo victims outing celebrities.

Again, yes, he probably is awkward or maybe he has a lot of women throwing themselves at him too because he's a star. I don't know.

If she wanted to finish her wine, maybe she should have insisted on it. When she said no the first time, maybe she should have left. When he didn't seem to be picking up her cues she could have made it more clear.

It's a classic he said/she said. Did you also read Aziz Ansari's response?

Men just don't pick up on other people's emotions as much as women do for the most part. it's not that they're insensitive. It's that women are more sensitive to other people's emotions, non-verbal cues etc.

Men want women to be more like men in their behavior in certain ways. Women want men to be more like women in certain ways as well. Guess what......it's not going to happen because the brains just don't work that way.

I just don't think you're ever going to find a woman who is going to get as excited about WWE wrestling as a man. In the same way, a man isn't going to cry over a baby bird that falls from it's nest the way a woman will.

There are differences. I understand that she thought she was communicating with him, but she really wasn't. She doesn't stand up for herself once and at the end of the date, highlariously, she asks him to call her cab. Furthermore, we don't know how many times Aziz Ansari's dumb or creepy approach worked. My guess is, it's probably worked a lot. That it didn't work on this particular woman can be blamed on both of them.

I don't she's the distressed virgin who is shocked that men want sex. She even admits she gave into some of the foreplay even though she didn't want to, including sucking him off. Okay, that's a problem......if she doesn't want to do it, she shouldn't do it. If she wanted to finish her glass of wine before they left, she should have insisted on finishing it.

Like I said......he may have been creepy and weird. She was also indecisive and confused.

Most people would call that, a bad date.
actually, it says she told him she'd call her own cab, but he insisted.

yes, i read his response. he said it seemed consensual to him.

how was she not clear when she said she didn't want to feel forced, told him she was feeling uncomfortable, etc? i think she stayed a while bc she wanted to like him and bc it was in such contrast to the public persona he projects, she kept wanting to give him a chance to redeem himself. she wanted him not to be creepy, she wanted to be enjoying herself with him and he just blew it everytime.

i disagree w/the whole women want men to be more like women bc there are a ton of guys who DON'T act like Aziz and can read situations...they're usually the ones with game. being unable to read social cues and signals, etc. is not a masculine thing, it's a socially inept thing. so if you're implying women should just say, "boys will be boys," and not speak out against it, i disagree.

i think speaking up and discouraging this kind of behavior is what ultimately helps change things, albeit not overnight. think about how differently men behave, depending on culture and where they live in the world. think about how men behave in, let's say, morrocco, compared to here, compared to italy, etc. in each country, the behavioral norms are different when it comes to this topic.

so no, i don't think it's just one of those things where you say, "oh, whatever, that's just how it is and so it's ok." nope, the whole idea of speaking up about it is with the hope that it eventually STOPS being just an accepted behavioral norm that women are to be blamed for.

and no, i don't think this girl wanted attention for being part of the #metoo movement speaking up against celebrities, because, if you notice in the article, she doesn't want them to use her real name.

and i didn't say she was some naive virgin. are you fully reading what i post in this thread? bc i'm fully reading every word of yours. bc what i said was, i think she was open to the idea of sex with him at his place, initially, but then he blew it when he acted how he did, it totally made her uncomfortable and turned her off.

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Old 05-22-2018, 06:24 AM   #16
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and yes, it was a bad date, i don't think anyone's trying to say anything criminal went on, but that doesn't make it ok or acceptable behavior.
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Old 05-22-2018, 08:48 PM   #17
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Yes, I am reading what you write. Like the author of OP article, the one you cited and your anecdotes, it's a complaint about men being pushy and aggressive. The first article proposes some sort of Marxism as the cure all for it. The article you brought up proposes mothers teach their sons how to not be pushy and aggressive. Your anecdotes illustrate that some men are pushy and emotionally manipulative. You then pretty much agree with the article you cited that what is needed is sweeping cultural changes in what is acceptable and the way to further that cultural change is by women complaining more about pushy men.

I have a few problems with that:

Both articles and your anecdotes and prescription completely ignore that:
a) Women act that way too in a less physically aggressive manner,
b) The problem may not be entirely cultural, it could have more to do with the biology of the brain.
c) if there is a cultural component, it likely has more to do with the family structure, or lack of, a boy is raised in.

I understand your point of view and the point of view of all three articles, the OP one, the one you quoted and the bad date. All of them are written by women with zero input or regard to a masculine perspective. I can't provide the male perspective because I'm not a man.

I will provide a perspective based on traditional western norms between the sexes. I'm going to use the first hand account in bad date article to illustrate my point. Of course, the article is about Katie and Aziz.

I do not see the article the way Katie intended or the way you interpret it. My opinion is that Katie was interiorly conflicted the entire time. My evidence is that she gave Aziz a blow job and admits she didn't want to. I can't imagine any woman who is not conflicted doing something like that. It's not like most women like giving blow jobs. Most to do it to please their partner, not for their own pleasure. I literally bust out laughing at Katie when I read that part. I felt sympathy for Aziz, because here's this guy getting his cocked sucked by this woman he barely knows and the next thing he knows, he ends up being the subject of a #metoo hit piece. How was he supposed to know she didn't want to suck him as she's sucking him off? I mean, she's sucking him, right?

Anyway, Katie was very conflicted and I am going to conjecture as to the reason for that. Katie doesn't seem to be sexually attracted to Aziz. She seems to be more impressed with his fame, money and public persona. I think she wanted to be his friend, not his girlfriend. She may have been open to being his girlfriend if the friendship progressed but she doesn't seem all that keen on having a romantic or sexual relationship with him. The way she discusses her interest in him is by referring to a photography hobby they both share and that she thinks he's kind of cool. I did think it weird, that she thought he should be more interested in her on a personal and friendship type level like she was interested in him as friend. She is the one who initiates contact with him. She's the one asking for his attention.

What is he supposed to think? For starters, he's not thinking of treating her like a personal friend or a someone he wants to have a serious romantic relationship with. He's thinking he might have sex with her. If he knew he wasn't going to have sex with her and definitely if he knew she was going to pull a metoo on him, I doubt he would have bothered to have dinner with her.

The crux of the matter is, he had sex on the brain and she had friend zone on the brain.

You and Katie both say she gave him multiple chances to redeem himself. My question is redeem himself because of what? Not picking up on her conflicted social cues? I have a different opinion. I think Katie thought it would be cool to have Aziz as a friend but wasn't really interested in him romantically though she was open to that possibility. She could have been more insistent at the restaurant about ordering for herself or finishing her glass of wine, but she wasn't. She was to put it bluntly, quite the submissive doormat. She gets to his apartment and comedy of sexual awkwardness plays out. She says no, but she doesn't leave. She pushes him off but then ends up sucking his cock. I think I know what was going on in her head (yep, I'm a mind reader). I think she wanted to maintain a friendship with a celebrity above all else. If he didn't get sex, he wouldn't be interested in her. So she did a faustian bargin and decided to give him some in the hopes she could salvage what she wanted, a close friendship with him, his celebrity, maybe even a pic of herself and him in a tabloid. She's not going to admit that though. She knew if she was too clear and unambiguous about "no sex" just friendship, he may not want to invest the time and energy into becoming her close friend. She's probably right. She seems like an average run of the mill sort of girl that's a dime a dozen. There's nothing particularly attractive about her and in my opinion, unless she was really sexy, Aziz probably should have passed on her. I mean how lame, we both like photography!! Let's be best friends! k, what person of any means to do so with no spouse and no kids doesn't spend at least a year playing I'm a photographer. I did it for a year too and made a very cool little album with my first digital camera. I was even dumb enough to give copies of it out as Christmas gifts....hahahahaha. I still laugh with my family about that.

Okay okay, back to the point. The one solution I see for this problem isn't more cultural shouting down of men or women complaining about men being pushy. It's the solution that's always been in western culture and some traditional Christian and Jewish communities still practice it today. It used to be that mothers would tell their daughters back in the fifties and sixties, not to call boys on the phone. It used to be that men asked women out on dates. Most feminists and probably most women today think that's entirely preposterous and ridiculous and old fashioned, but it also put all the power in the hands of the women.

I'll tell ya where Katie went wrong. She wanted Aziz to take an interest in her as a person. He wanted sex. Granted neither was entirely opposed to developments, such as Aziz probably would have been more interested in her as a person if they had good sex. She might have been more interested in sex with him if he talked more about photography and looked at her pictures. But here's the thing, she pursued him. Generally, that suggests a sexual attraction and sex. I do not blame him in any way for thinking he had a chance to score. I think any feminists who thinks he should be shamed or was wrong to have that expectation, is a dummy.

In a traditional courtship, where the man calls the woman or asks her out, all the cards are in her control. He has to impress her and she is the one who decides yea or nay. She is gracing him with her time and her presence. She is giving him a shot. Of course, a guy is still wanting sex in that scenario too but the way he thinks about it is much different. if a guy is risking rejection by asking her out, he's going to try to put his best foot forward. If a woman asks a man out, the man thinks she's already into him and he doesn't have to try as hard to respect her, get to know her or impress her. I'm not saying the traditional mores of dating and courtship are ever going to be the norm again or that we should try to change society back to days of nice girls not calling men on the phone or asking men out on a date. It's certainly easier for a man if the women do the asking and it's certainly easier if a woman is interested in a man to just straight up ask him out instead of sending subtle hints and cues. I am saying, maybe there's some wisdom to be found in the traditional way of things.

In my opinion, Katie's problem and the source of her conflict, is that she approached him but she didn't really want him sexually or romantically. She wanted to friend zone him. Yet, he saw her ditch her date to fawn over him at an event. It doesn't really matter what the relationship was between her and the guy she came with was, what Aziz saw, is that she ditched the one she came with for him. He had every reason to think she was into him and to try. At any moment, she could have ended the "worst night of her life". She could have insisted on ordering for herself, as friends do. She could have insisted on finishing her wine, as a friend would do with a friend. She could have done more than awkwardly allowing him to fool around with her than pushing him off then allowing him again and then pushing him off and then allowing him again etc. etc. She could have said, I'm not interested in you that way....yet. Maybe after we know each other for a few weeks or months or whatever. She could have been more clear about "getting to know you better" means a longer expanse of time than another 15 minutes. She could have left earlier too. She could have made the dinner a group think and invite some of her friends and have him invite some of his. There's a thousand different ways she could have handled it, but acting like a submissive dippy damsel and then throwing out a metoo is the worst. okay, she could have accused him of rape....and yeah, the feminists need to know, some women do cry rape after a bad date. if feminists think they're going to get men to all act like perfect gentlemen and never grab pussy so to speak while telling women it's okay to behave and act anyway she chooses, the gender war is just going to end in a big fat fail. Who wants to wade through all that. I can understand why a lot of young men would rather get fat, play video games and porn. or maybe even turn themselves into women and announce that they're lesbians assigned the wrong gender at birth. Going gay is probably easier too since there's always going to be another guy available to fuck.

I'm not saying it's women's fault or even Katie's fault. however, i think it is incredibly vindictive and mean that she did a metoo on Aziz. I find it even more odd and completely unseemly that she kept his text messages apologizing. For a bit, at first (I put up a thread about it on liveleak) in which I took Katie's side but after having a couple of men read it and argued it out with me, I can see what Katie did is a classic kiss'n'tell maneuver that men pull on women. Aziz has already paid a price for Katie's metoo (which incidentally, gave her another brush with celebrity). What happened that night should have stayed between the two of them and frankly, Aziz's apology to her and the way it was used against him (I used it against him too) in retrospect was disgusting. He was just trying to do the right thing after the fact.

GAWD, now I have to apologize to Aziz for my hit piece against him on liveleak forums. It took me hours of arguments with men to understand the Aziz's side btw, so yeah, I did argue that he was creepy, piggish, felt entitled to katie's body, should have totally kept hands off the moment she pushed him or said no but that's not how relationships work. They're messy, confusing, weird, unclear, sometimes a bit dangerous but blaming men for having sex on the brain and trying to socially engineer society so men won't ever act on their sexual impulses is not a strategy that's going to work, especially if "no rules" apply to women.
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Old 05-22-2018, 10:02 PM   #18
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Many guys are thinking twice about hiring women with #metoo.

For sure I’m avoiding traveling with a female due to potential for false accusation.

Many men are just doing that.
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Old 05-23-2018, 03:05 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Aquina1300 View Post
I have a few problems with that:

Both articles and your anecdotes and prescription completely ignore that:
a) Women act that way too in a less physically aggressive manner,
b) The problem may not be entirely cultural, it could have more to do with the biology of the brain.
c) if there is a cultural component, it likely has more to do with the family structure, or lack of, a boy is raised in.
how do women act that way towards men? please give me an example. and a fairly typical one, please, not a one-in-a-million example, since that is what we're talking about when it comes to men.

is the problem entirely cultural? of course not, i never said it was - obviously biology plays a role. but culture ALSO plays a role and i think it's just as ridiculous to deny that as it is to deny biology. men of different cultures behave differently towards women, from cat-calling to sexual aggression to what they think is ok to say to persistence to just about everything. and then there's also family structure and there's also just personality.

it's not a man-raised-by-a-single mother thing, though, if that's what you think. long-term, i believe that affects how they treat relationships w/women, but short-term and in the initial dating phase and in terms of sexual harassment/sexual assault, no, i've known quote a few who don't act anything like Aziz did. from different backgrounds, too. if anything, i find that they pay more attention to what women are saying and the cues that Aziz failed to pick up on, maybe bc that was their only boss growing up, so that's whose boundaries they hadda abide by or at least pay attention to, so...this also can be the case for dudes with sisters close to their age. I think that helps, too.

also, something you fail to consider about family structure is that, yes, having a dad shows the boy how to be a man and act like a man in many different situations...but generally not sexual ones. i doubt most kids have witnessed their parents in a setting like the one with Aziz and Grace. you also don't typically witness your parents w/co-workers in a workplace setting (sexual harassment). soooo that shit, you don't learn from your parents/family structure. you learn that from culture, media, friends and then biology plays a role, too.

and further down, you mention something about 60's culture and the way things were, so clearly, you know culture plays a role in how men and women act...

Quote:
I do not see the article the way Katie intended or the way you interpret it. My opinion is that Katie was interiorly conflicted the entire time. My evidence is that she gave Aziz a blow job and admits she didn't want to. I can't imagine any woman who is not conflicted doing something like that. It's not like most women like giving blow jobs. Most to do it to please their partner, not for their own pleasure. I literally bust out laughing at Katie when I read that part. I felt sympathy for Aziz, because here's this guy getting his cocked sucked by this woman he barely knows and the next thing he knows, he ends up being the subject of a #metoo hit piece. How was he supposed to know she didn't want to suck him as she's sucking him off? I mean, she's sucking him, right?
because she hinted at it, repeatedly, when she was at his place. and common sense will tell you that it doesn't usually work like that 2 seconds after you walk in the door of someone's house when it's the first date!

Quote:
Anyway, Katie was very conflicted and I am going to conjecture as to the reason for that. Katie doesn't seem to be sexually attracted to Aziz. She seems to be more impressed with his fame, money and public persona. I think she wanted to be his friend, not his girlfriend. She may have been open to being his girlfriend if the friendship progressed but she doesn't seem all that keen on having a romantic or sexual relationship with him. The way she discusses her interest in him is by referring to a photography hobby they both share and that she thinks he's kind of cool. I did think it weird, that she thought he should be more interested in her on a personal and friendship type level like she was interested in him as friend. She is the one who initiates contact with him. She's the one asking for his attention.
I disagree, I think there was some attraction there, based partly on their initial meeting at the party and also, based on what she'd seen of his work and based on how she pictured/wanted him to be based off of that. she even said, they flirted in texts, etc. beforehand. but throughout the night, i think she slowly but surely came to grips with the fact that this is not the man she initially thought she was going on a date with or whose house she was going to.

i think she very much knew what going back to his place meant and was open to it, at first, but she expected him to be a bit more smooth and less creepy with the way he went about things and when he acted so pushy and gross, she lost her attraction to him.

Quote:
What is he supposed to think? For starters, he's not thinking of treating her like a personal friend or a someone he wants to have a serious romantic relationship with. He's thinking he might have sex with her. If he knew he wasn't going to have sex with her and definitely if he knew she was going to pull a metoo on him, I doubt he would have bothered to have dinner with her.
tough shit for him, i doubt she woulda bothered to go out with him if she'd known he'd act the way he did once they got back to his place.

as i said above, i don't think she wanted to just be friends, i think she was initially attracted to him, then he blew it once they got back to his place and he acted like such a creep.

i don't know if he wanted anything serious or not, but i think he definitely wanted to see her again since he texted her the next day, telling her he had fun with her the night before.

Quote:
You and Katie both say she gave him multiple chances to redeem himself. My question is redeem himself because of what? Not picking up on her conflicted social cues?
Redeem himself from acting like a creep and taking a hint once she said something! he had the perfect opportunity when she stayed after she said something about not liking him moving so fast and he initially responded well, saying, "of course, it's no fun unless we're both enjoying it, let's go watch tv." she said herself, after that, she was thinking they'd just be able to watch tv for a bit and so he could just let her go at her own pace, let her make the next move. at that point, i think she eventually woulda, he still had a chance, she just wanted to see that she wasn't with a complete creep with no self-control and within minutes, he blew it.

you're right that she was conflicted but she stated her position quite clearly when she told him he was moving too fast, she wanted him to slow down, but still stayed. that's pretty clear, that's saying, you're not acting in such a way that's making me wanna fuck you, but show me you can control yourself and that'll change.

with the way he's chosen to represent himself publicly - declaring himself as a feminist, someone whose "woke" to the problems of sexual harassment and assault, someone who wrote a book on how men should act with women and someone who prides himself on calling out men who act creepy, etc. that's the man she thought he was and she so badly wanted him to prove that to her, she wanted to see the side of him that knew how to act in these situations and he failed, miserably, no matter how many chances he was given.

Quote:
I have a different opinion. I think Katie thought it would be cool to have Aziz as a friend but wasn't really interested in him romantically though she was open to that possibility. She could have been more insistent at the restaurant about ordering for herself or finishing her glass of wine, but she wasn't. She was to put it bluntly, quite the submissive doormat. She gets to his apartment and comedy of sexual awkwardness plays out. She says no, but she doesn't leave. She pushes him off but then ends up sucking his cock. I think I know what was going on in her head (yep, I'm a mind reader). I think she wanted to maintain a friendship with a celebrity above all else.
No, if that's what she wanted, she wouldn't have texted him back her true feelings about that night when he texted her the next day, telling her he had fun with her the night before.

K, sorry, but i've gotta cut this post into 2 posts bc LL says it's too many characters, we're both long-winded, haha, so I'm gonna copy/paste the rest of my response in the next post.

Last edited by slacker-; 05-23-2018 at 03:25 AM.
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Old 05-23-2018, 03:05 AM   #20
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Quote:
If he didn't get sex, he wouldn't be interested in her. So she did a faustian bargin and decided to give him some in the hopes she could salvage what she wanted, a close friendship with him, his celebrity, maybe even a pic of herself and him in a tabloid.
agreed, he wanted sex, at minimum and maybe a casual fling or something more, at max, and so did she, but then he blew it.
no, she didn't want a friendship with him LOL. notice she didn't even try to maintain a relationship of any sort after that night. when he texted her the next day telling her he had fun last night, she wrote back that she did not have fun and explained why. he replied that he was very sad to hear that and was sorry and she did not reply. she wanted nothing more to do with him.


Quote:
Okay okay, back to the point. The one solution I see for this problem isn't more cultural shouting down of men or women complaining about men being pushy. It's the solution that's always been in western culture and some traditional Christian and Jewish communities still practice it today. It used to be that mothers would tell their daughters back in the fifties and sixties, not to call boys on the phone. It used to be that men asked women out on dates. Most feminists and probably most women today think that's entirely preposterous and ridiculous and old fashioned, but it also put all the power in the hands of the women.
no, it's not preposterous, but it's just so not the case for many women, myself included. i like it when guys let me make the first move. men are generally so obvious about it when they want you, so if i want him, too, i'll make the first move. that way, there's no confusion, no unwanted advances, no awkward misread signals and i don't feel pushed or forced into anything. and i'm not saying that's the case for every female, but it is for a lot of female friends i've talked to about this (i've talked to countless girl friends about this topic).

Quote:
I'll tell ya where Katie went wrong. She wanted Aziz to take an interest in her as a person. He wanted sex. Granted neither was entirely opposed to developments, such as Aziz probably would have been more interested in her as a person if they had good sex. She might have been more interested in sex with him if he talked more about photography and looked at her pictures. But here's the thing, she pursued him. Generally, that suggests a sexual attraction and sex. I do not blame him in any way for thinking he had a chance to score. I think any feminists who thinks he should be shamed or was wrong to have that expectation, is a dummy.
she pursued him as in she talked to him, first, initially and then they flirted at the party and there was mutual attraction. she even said how they were both especially aware of each other's presence the rest of the night, etc. then, they exchanged #'s, exchanged flirty texts, etc. she was into it, he was into it, and so when he asked her out, she had no problem saying yes! so coming into this date, there was mutual attraction. she didn't go into it thinking this was a friend thing. she went into it thinking this was a date with a man that she was attracted to.

Quote:
In a traditional courtship, where the man calls the woman or asks her out, all the cards are in her control. He has to impress her and she is the one who decides yea or nay. She is gracing him with her time and her presence. She is giving him a shot. Of course, a guy is still wanting sex in that scenario too but the way he thinks about it is much different. if a guy is risking rejection by asking her out, he's going to try to put his best foot forward.
not in this case! he's still the one who asked for her # and he's the one who asked her out! you need to re-read the article.

Quote:
I'm not saying the traditional mores of dating and courtship are ever going to be the norm again or that we should try to change society back to days of nice girls not calling men on the phone or asking men out on a date. It's certainly easier for a man if the women do the asking and it's certainly easier if a woman is interested in a man to just straight up ask him out instead of sending subtle hints and cues. I am saying, maybe there's some wisdom to be found in the traditional way of things.

In my opinion, Katie's problem and the source of her conflict, is that she approached him but she didn't really want him sexually or romantically. She wanted to friend zone him. Yet, he saw her ditch her date to fawn over him at an event.
she fawned over him by asking him about his camera??? and then there was mutual flirting and banter? and then he asked for her number at the end? seriously? THAT'S fawning over him?

Quote:
It doesn't really matter what the relationship was between her and the guy she came with was, what Aziz saw, is that she ditched the one she came with for him. He had every reason to think she was into him and to try.
she WAS into him, then he blew it. has that not ever happened to you? have you not ever gone out with a guy who you initially liked, but then, as you guys spent more time together, he did some things that turned you off and you changed your mind? jesus. are people not allowed to change their minds these days? isn't that the whole point of dating? you go out with someone you find attractive, spend time together and see how it goes?

Quote:
At any moment, she could have ended the "worst night of her life". She could have insisted on ordering for herself, as friends do. She could have insisted on finishing her wine, as a friend would do with a friend. She could have done more than awkwardly allowing him to fool around with her than pushing him off then allowing him again and then pushing him off and then allowing him again etc. etc. She could have said, I'm not interested in you that way....yet. Maybe after we know each other for a few weeks or months or whatever. She could have been more clear about "getting to know you better" means a longer expanse of time than another 15 minutes. She could have left earlier too. She could have made the dinner a group think and invite some of her friends and have him invite some of his. There's a thousand different ways she could have handled it, but acting like a submissive dippy damsel and then throwing out a metoo is the worst.
since when do hints need to be given with neon red lights flashing and sirens sounding in order for someone to get it???

if i text a guy 50 times in a row and there's no response, is that not hint enough he's not interested? or should i continue to think there's a chance and keep texting him just because he doesn't tell me to stop texting him and doesn't block me?

FFS, silence and pushing someone off you and turning away IS an answer, it IS a response.

Quote:
okay, she could have accused him of rape....and yeah, the feminists need to know, some women do cry rape after a bad date. if feminists think they're going to get men to all act like perfect gentlemen and never grab pussy so to speak while telling women it's okay to behave and act anyway she chooses, the gender war is just going to end in a big fat fail. Who wants to wade through all that. I can understand why a lot of young men would rather get fat, play video games and porn. or maybe even turn themselves into women and announce that they're lesbians assigned the wrong gender at birth. Going gay is probably easier too since there's always going to be another guy available to fuck.
yup, gay is much easier, they're on the same page, sexually...haha


Quote:
I'm not saying it's women's fault or even Katie's fault. however, i think it is incredibly vindictive and mean that she did a metoo on Aziz. I find it even more odd and completely unseemly that she kept his text messages apologizing. For a bit, at first (I put up a thread about it on liveleak) in which I took Katie's side but after having a couple of men read it and argued it out with me, I can see what Katie did is a classic kiss'n'tell maneuver that men pull on women. Aziz has already paid a price for Katie's metoo (which incidentally, gave her another brush with celebrity). What happened that night should have stayed between the two of them and frankly, Aziz's apology to her and the way it was used against him (I used it against him too) in retrospect was disgusting. He was just trying to do the right thing after the fact.
i didn't see your thread about this on LL, but did it ever occur to you that maybe these men who argued with you about it and convinced you to their perspective did so because maybe they saw themselves in Aziz? Maybe they read it and realized that they, too, had done this before and would be mortified if it were suddenly front page news, written about in graphic detail, for the whole world to read?

yes, he apologized, his response to her text was nice and likely sincere, but then he went on to wear that TimesUp pin and continue to advertise himself as a feminist, someone whose "woke" and all this other shit. his public persona was so hypocritical and so contradicting of what she saw in private, she couldn't stand it, it disgusted her and took her back to that night, so she spoke up, i get it.

mean? tough shit. she didn't say anything that wasn't true. she didn't say anything that wasn't recent, either. if she'd written a story about some bullshit that happened 10 years ago or even 5 years ago, i'd say come on, that's ridiculous. but this happened in september 2017 and it was published in january 2018.

and even though Aziz wasn't mean to her, he still made her feel extremely uncomfortable out and his behavior is still gross and unacceptable and not something she should feel a need to protect him from.

maybe, after reading about his behavior from her POV, he'll learn something about himself. i know that, if i read someone's account of a night with me that sounded like that, i'd definitely feel a need to re-evaluate my behavior.

and i hope he does, too! and i hope any man who read that and saw himself, does, too.

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