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Old 05-21-2018, 04:30 PM   #1
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Default The Guardian Is Super Serial About Toxic Masculinity

If this article doesn't make you die of laughter, you're not thinking right and probably go to the wrong bathroom.

Quote:
Luridly retro ideas of what it means to be a man have caused a dangerous rush of testosterone around the world – from Modi’s Hindu supremacism to Trump’s nuclear brinkmanship
Source:
https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...P=share_btn_fb


Funniest Quote:
Quote:
Many straight white men feel besieged by “uppity” Chinese and Indian people, by Muslims and feminists, not to mention gay bodybuilders, butch women and trans people.
And here we have the crazy Marxist talk about how masculinity is a byproduct of Industrial Capitalism.
Quote:
I began to think that a perpetual crisis stalks the modern world. It began in the 19th century, with the most radical shift in human history: the replacement of agrarian and rural societies by a volatile socio-economic order, which, defined by industrial capitalism,
There's a whole bunch of people who are on the toxic masculinity list in this article from Hindu supermacists to Arthur Schlessinger Jr.

The glaring omission on this list is the subjugation of women by Islamic societies across the globe. Some sacred cows just can't be killed, huh?

The article isn't worth reading. It's a scatter shot approach by a Marxist woman who couldn't organize her thoughts well enough to say anything coherent. She could have just said "Oh penis, that's icky. Men scare me."
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Old 05-21-2018, 04:45 PM   #2
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The Guardian proves almost daily that leftism is what dumb people think smart people think.
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Old 05-21-2018, 06:07 PM   #3
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What do you think of this article?

Quote:
A feminist approach to raising boys must go beyond allowing our sons to wear dresses and play with dolls. It must even go beyond teaching them the basics of sexual consent. There has to be a fundamental change in how our sons conceptualise their place in the world.

The female half of the human race does not exist to comfort them, validate them, define them, reflect them back at twice their actual size. Not only is such an expectation deeply dismissive of the needs of women and girls, it is bound to make men and boys unhappy. They will always, sooner or later, run up against some form of female refusal to bend to their needs.

Male pride rests on the delusion that females can always be dominated (or “persuaded”, as it is so often recast). It is a delusion that is poisoning the minds of boys, creating a sense of grievance – and actual pain – where there should be none. For all the bullshit we hear from the Jordan Petersons of this world, there is no possible social arrangement in which men and boys can be guaranteed the willing, uncontested sexual and emotional labour of women and girls. You can brainwash, harass and threaten girls all you want, but even in the most extreme of circumstances they will carry on having minds of their own. It’s far easier and kinder to change the expectations of boys.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a8361776.html
I disagree with her idea that the media is indirectly blaming his (now dead) crush for turning him down, but I agree w/what she said here.

Not all men have this type of mentality, but I wouldn't be surprised if the shooter did.
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Old 05-21-2018, 06:51 PM   #4
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the gaurdian and its opposite the daily mail are both full of shit sprinkled with the occasional piece of journalism
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Old 05-21-2018, 07:12 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slacker- View Post
What do you think of this article?



I disagree with her idea that the media is indirectly blaming his (now dead) crush for turning him down, but I agree w/what she said here.

Not all men have this type of mentality, but I wouldn't be surprised if the shooter did.
1) There's never going to be a society in which every kid is raised right and therefore all violent crime is eliminated. There may not even be a "right way" to raise each and every child.

2) That doesn't mean we should ignore the evidence that we do have. That evidence demonstrates time and time again, the best way to raise a son that will not commit a violence offense against women is for that boy to be born into a stable home with a mom and a dad. In fact, studies even show if the home isn't all that stable, the dad is an alcoholic or the mom is nut, the child still has a better chance of becoming a productive, law abiding citizen than a boy raised in a single mother headed home. Even single parent father headed homes raising boys are more successful statistically than woman headed single parent households. Not Surprisingly, the inverse is true of girls. A single mother headed household will probably raise a better daughter into a woman than a single male headed household. The problem here, is the male and female interaction. Children from single parent headed houses don't have a paradigm to follow. Of course, in terms of parental separation and divorce, it depends on a) how long the family unit was intact and b) how much interaction the child has with both parents after the separation or divorce. Financial well being and good schools do not substitute for a missing parent. There's literally tens of thousands of books on the subject so I can't really present it all or know it all so don't pick this apart. The basic take away point is, if a woman wants a son that isn't a jerk, don't marry a jerk but make sure you marry the boy's father...so don't sleep with a jerk.

3) There's an awful lot of women who think they know so much about men and boys. Just as there are an awful lot of men who think they know so much about women and girls. However, in our culture, women are constantly blabbing about boys and men and men really don't get the same opportunity because Muh sexist narrative. Two anecdotes brought this home to me.....almost every single guy I have talked to about the Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman case, said they believe Trayvon Martin assaulted George Zimmerman. Even men I know who are part of BLM said that. Most women I talked to either said they didn't know or said Trayvon Martin did not assault George Zimmerman (which is what I believe) . When I pressed men on the topic, almost all of them said something along the lines of, I know 17 year old boys and you don't. Boys are not girls with penises. They aren't even generic humans with penises. They think differently and act differently than women. The second anecdote has to do with something that happened in a camp for teenagers I'm associated with. There was an attempt to integrate the sexes in the summer program, including the program sets which were different based on gender. Of course, there were a lot of objections to that and it never happened. However, in the course of the meetings, the two self identified feminists at different times, retorted to the men, "men have to learn how to control themselves and their impulses". I didn't think anything of it really at the time because yes, men should control themselves. That's a fundamental notion of western civilization that sets us apart from other civilizations that believe men can't control their sexual impulses and therefore not to blame for anything men do if "temptation" is around. The men at the meetings had a much different understanding. To them, they can control their own impulses but they both believed that it would make their jobs much more difficult because they would be responsible for themselves and a bunch of boys who would be living with teenage girls 24/7 for two weeks. They believed an introduction of girls into the boys program would change the fundamental nature of the program and to just tell the boys and men to "control themselves" was ridiculous. Boys think different and sex isn't just on the brain. It's ON THE BRAIN, literally imprinted ON THE BRAIN. Even if men want to get sex off the brain, they can't do it. Men really do think with their dicks in a way women do not and cannot think with their vaginas.

4) No matter how much women try to educated, lecture, cajole or force men to not be masculine, men are going to be masculine. They are going to set up hierarchical structures. They're going to be physical instead of verbal. They are going to do things to impress women and get the attention of women. They're going to notice, remember and obsess over bodies, body parts, attractiveness etc. They can try really hard not to notice or pay attention to the ten who walked into the room, but they can't block it out. Men are going to attach part of their self esteem to whether or not they have a girlfriend, wife etc. We can teach them not to talk about it in terms of possession or ownership, but the fact is, their brains are hardwired to think in those terms. They think of danger and territory differently from women too. A male brain is not a female brain and although the differences are small, the differences are there and mostly immutable.

I think a lot of things were probably wrong in the Santa Fe shooter's life and one of those things is probably being humiliated in class by a girl he liked. I don't know the whole story there and I'm not going to judge that either way other than to say, it's not her fault that he went psycho. She might be at fault for other things but not for his murders. The very sad thing though, is that's going to color her life for the next twenty years at least. I doubt raising the Santa Fe murderer to be more sensitive to women would have helped him deal with that humiliation.

I'm going to make one other point. It's probably the most important point to make here and I'm not claiming to be a neuroscientist but there are recent developments in neuroscience about males, sex and violence. Some men are more hardwired than other men to link sex and violence. There's always something domineering about a man in terms of heteronormative sex behavior. It's part of masculinity to be able to screw something. In some men though, the wires get a little crossed and that dominate part of their sexual brain is violent. Now there's all the caveats here---what came first the chicken or the egg, correlation isn't causation, is it nature or nurture....I don't know. I also don't know if the percentage of men who have that sexual violence link in their brains can change. Sexual proclivities in men are very difficult to change, to the point of almost impossible. It may be that some men are going to be like that. It may be that there's some sort of understanding we can find that will help us prevent it. One thing I know is this, if that link between sex and violence is present in a man's brain, once it's there, whenever it gets there, it's not going to change very easily and definitely not by some woman giving lectures about how to treat women.

And one last addendum: Too many women think they talk for all women on subjects like this. Manifestly, the woman writing this article is wrong. There are some women who like to be dominated. There are some women who like a man who takes control and tells her what he wants. In the same manner, there are men who like to be bossed around by their wives. Some men like women who tell them what to do, when to do it and how to do it. Some men bristle at that and some men enjoy it. Feminists tend to ignore women who don't fit their narrative of absolute equality between the sexes.

I'm willing to bet there's a lot more women who want to be owned and dominated by a man than there are men who want to be bossed around by a woman.
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Yeah but they're Moozlims. Kill 'em all! -Wimbly
In other words it's always their fault for not voting Republican. - Wimbly

Last edited by Aquina1300; 05-21-2018 at 07:21 PM.
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Old 05-21-2018, 09:39 PM   #6
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See, I interpreted this article differently than you did.

I don’t think she’s assuming she speaks for all women or that women are all the same in terms of what they want/don’t want in a man (I agree, that’s a matter of taste/preference/personality). Nor did I take her article to mean she’s saying men shouldn’t be masculine. I think she’s trying to say they are not ENTITLED to women’s attentions, affection, comfort, etc. and it’s not women’s job to comfort them, pay attention to them, have sex with them, or make them feel better, etc if they don’t want to. In other words, women are not obligated to do what you want them to do just bc it makes you feel better, women are entitled to make decisions based on what they want, not what you want. If they want to make decisions based on what you want, that’s fine, too, but you’re not entitled to that and you shouldn’t expect her to.

I don’t see what that has to do with being masculine - actually, I feel like a man who gets that is more attractive/confident in himself. Lashing out or guilt tripping when a woman does not do what you want her to do for you is kind of a bratty insecure beta male trait, IMO.

Since we’re sharing personal experiences here, I can’t even tell you how many men I’ve encountered that are like that if I don’t give them what they want from me - they’ll guilt trip, persist as if they can’t accept no, complain I’ve hurt their feelings, etc. if I don’t let them live with me (I had this Airbnb guest who kept trying to move in and when I said no and explained the reasons, he kept persisting and when I still said no and got more harsh, he said I hurt his feelings) don’t wanna date them, don’t reciprocate their feelings, don’t tell them what they wanna hear, dont send them photos they want (“that hurts my feeeeelings,”), etc. as if it’s my job to make them feel better when they are the ones who put me on the spot and put me in the awkward position of having to disappoint them in the first place. That shit is not masculine, at least not to me and telling men not to act like that is not telling them to act un-masculine, IMO. It’s telling them not to be whiny or angry, pathetic brats when they don’t get the validation they want from women.

And what do you think his crush is at fault for? Her mother said Shania had dealt with 4 months of problems w/him, after he repeatedly asked her out and she repeatedly said no and he refused to back off and respect her wishes. Apparently, he instead responded by being more and more aggressive in his advances until finally, last week, she’d had enough and publicly announced in class that she was not interested. The fact that he got embarassed, tough shit, she tried for 4 months to be nice about it without embarrassing him, so he had plenty of chances to just move on without it becoming this big embarrassing scene.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquina1300 View Post
1) There's never going to be a society in which every kid is raised right and therefore all violent crime is eliminated. There may not even be a "right way" to raise each and every child.

2) That doesn't mean we should ignore the evidence that we do have. That evidence demonstrates time and time again, the best way to raise a son that will not commit a violence offense against women is for that boy to be born into a stable home with a mom and a dad. In fact, studies even show if the home isn't all that stable, the dad is an alcoholic or the mom is nut, the child still has a better chance of becoming a productive, law abiding citizen than a boy raised in a single mother headed home. Even single parent father headed homes raising boys are more successful statistically than woman headed single parent households. Not Surprisingly, the inverse is true of girls. A single mother headed household will probably raise a better daughter into a woman than a single male headed household. The problem here, is the male and female interaction. Children from single parent headed houses don't have a paradigm to follow. Of course, in terms of parental separation and divorce, it depends on a) how long the family unit was intact and b) how much interaction the child has with both parents after the separation or divorce. Financial well being and good schools do not substitute for a missing parent. There's literally tens of thousands of books on the subject so I can't really present it all or know it all so don't pick this apart. The basic take away point is, if a woman wants a son that isn't a jerk, don't marry a jerk but make sure you marry the boy's father...so don't sleep with a jerk.

3) There's an awful lot of women who think they know so much about men and boys. Just as there are an awful lot of men who think they know so much about women and girls. However, in our culture, women are constantly blabbing about boys and men and men really don't get the same opportunity because Muh sexist narrative. Two anecdotes brought this home to me.....almost every single guy I have talked to about the Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman case, said they believe Trayvon Martin assaulted George Zimmerman. Even men I know who are part of BLM said that. Most women I talked to either said they didn't know or said Trayvon Martin did not assault George Zimmerman (which is what I believe) . When I pressed men on the topic, almost all of them said something along the lines of, I know 17 year old boys and you don't. Boys are not girls with penises. They aren't even generic humans with penises. They think differently and act differently than women. The second anecdote has to do with something that happened in a camp for teenagers I'm associated with. There was an attempt to integrate the sexes in the summer program, including the program sets which were different based on gender. Of course, there were a lot of objections to that and it never happened. However, in the course of the meetings, the two self identified feminists at different times, retorted to the men, "men have to learn how to control themselves and their impulses". I didn't think anything of it really at the time because yes, men should control themselves. That's a fundamental notion of western civilization that sets us apart from other civilizations that believe men can't control their sexual impulses and therefore not to blame for anything men do if "temptation" is around. The men at the meetings had a much different understanding. To them, they can control their own impulses but they both believed that it would make their jobs much more difficult because they would be responsible for themselves and a bunch of boys who would be living with teenage girls 24/7 for two weeks. They believed an introduction of girls into the boys program would change the fundamental nature of the program and to just tell the boys and men to "control themselves" was ridiculous. Boys think different and sex isn't just on the brain. It's ON THE BRAIN, literally imprinted ON THE BRAIN. Even if men want to get sex off the brain, they can't do it. Men really do think with their dicks in a way women do not and cannot think with their vaginas.

4) No matter how much women try to educated, lecture, cajole or force men to not be masculine, men are going to be masculine. They are going to set up hierarchical structures. They're going to be physical instead of verbal. They are going to do things to impress women and get the attention of women. They're going to notice, remember and obsess over bodies, body parts, attractiveness etc. They can try really hard not to notice or pay attention to the ten who walked into the room, but they can't block it out. Men are going to attach part of their self esteem to whether or not they have a girlfriend, wife etc. We can teach them not to talk about it in terms of possession or ownership, but the fact is, their brains are hardwired to think in those terms. They think of danger and territory differently from women too. A male brain is not a female brain and although the differences are small, the differences are there and mostly immutable.

I think a lot of things were probably wrong in the Santa Fe shooter's life and one of those things is probably being humiliated in class by a girl he liked. I don't know the whole story there and I'm not going to judge that either way other than to say, it's not her fault that he went psycho. She might be at fault for other things but not for his murders. The very sad thing though, is that's going to color her life for the next twenty years at least. I doubt raising the Santa Fe murderer to be more sensitive to women would have helped him deal with that humiliation.

I'm going to make one other point. It's probably the most important point to make here and I'm not claiming to be a neuroscientist but there are recent developments in neuroscience about males, sex and violence. Some men are more hardwired than other men to link sex and violence. There's always something domineering about a man in terms of heteronormative sex behavior. It's part of masculinity to be able to screw something. In some men though, the wires get a little crossed and that dominate part of their sexual brain is violent. Now there's all the caveats here---what came first the chicken or the egg, correlation isn't causation, is it nature or nurture....I don't know. I also don't know if the percentage of men who have that sexual violence link in their brains can change. Sexual proclivities in men are very difficult to change, to the point of almost impossible. It may be that some men are going to be like that. It may be that there's some sort of understanding we can find that will help us prevent it. One thing I know is this, if that link between sex and violence is present in a man's brain, once it's there, whenever it gets there, it's not going to change very easily and definitely not by some woman giving lectures about how to treat women.

And one last addendum: Too many women think they talk for all women on subjects like this. Manifestly, the woman writing this article is wrong. There are some women who like to be dominated. There are some women who like a man who takes control and tells her what he wants. In the same manner, there are men who like to be bossed around by their wives. Some men like women who tell them what to do, when to do it and how to do it. Some men bristle at that and some men enjoy it. Feminists tend to ignore women who don't fit their narrative of absolute equality between the sexes.

I'm willing to bet there's a lot more women who want to be owned and dominated by a man than there are men who want to be bossed around by a woman.

Last edited by slacker-; 05-21-2018 at 11:36 PM. Reason: Typo and added last paragraph
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Old 05-21-2018, 11:38 PM   #7
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If what jordan peterson says is "bullshit", then what she says is also singularly bullshit. This is the problem with people writing inside an echo chamber. The left middle class think they are societies moral arbiters. Which they are not. Maybe its the decline of the church, and all these causes are simply filling a vacuum.

I see jordan peterson as a classic liberal, he even says so, and the left is calling him politically 'right wing'. I didnt think i would see such blatantly polar nonsensical views in my lifetime. I always thought time would improve how we live, but its still a rat race.
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Old 05-21-2018, 11:56 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slacker- View Post
See, I interpreted this article differently than you did.

I don’t think she’s assuming she speaks for all women or that women are all the same in terms of what they want/don’t want in a man (I agree, that’s a matter of taste/preference/personality). Nor did I take her article to mean she’s saying men shouldn’t be masculine. I think she’s trying to say they are not ENTITLED to women’s attentions, affection, comfort, etc. and it’s not women’s job to comfort them, pay attention to them, have sex with them, or make them feel better, etc if they don’t want to. In other words, women are not obligated to do what you want them to do just bc it makes you feel better, women are entitled to make decisions based on what they want, not what you want. If they want to make decisions based on what you want, that’s fine, too, but you’re not entitled to that and you shouldn’t expect her to.

I don’t see what that has to do with being masculine - actually, I feel like a man who gets that is more attractive/confident in himself. Lashing out or guilt tripping when a woman does not do what you want her to do for you is kind of a bratty insecure beta male trait, IMO.

Since we’re sharing personal experiences here, I can’t even tell you how many men I’ve encountered that are like that if I don’t give them what they want from me - they’ll guilt trip, persist as if they can’t accept no, complain I’ve hurt their feelings, etc. if I don’t let them live with me (I had this Airbnb guest who kept trying to move in and when I said no and explained the reasons, he kept persisting and when I still said no and got more harsh, he said I hurt his feelings) don’t wanna date them, don’t reciprocate their feelings, don’t tell them what they wanna hear, dont send them photos they want (“that hurts my feeeeelings,”), etc. as if it’s my job to make them feel better when they are the ones who put me on the spot and put me in the awkward position of having to disappoint them in the first place. That shit is not masculine, at least not to me and telling men not to act like that is not telling them to act in masculine, IMO.

And what do you think his crush is at fault for? That we know of, anyway.

The men you are describing are probably not mass murdering psychos.

I'd say the men you are describing aren't very much different from needy, clingy, desperate women. Men have problems getting rid of women they don't like, too. When they refuse to give or do something for a woman, women get bitchy too. frankly, there are ugly gross women out there who think they are at least an eight and they try to glob onto men and emotionally manipulate them.

There's really no difference between the men you're describing and the women I just described. I don't know if it's over privilege or just a low class upbringing. I've met very wealthy people and poor people who seem to have the same distorted weird emotionally manipulating behaviors. I hardly ever meet anyone in the solid middle class who behaves that way.

The difference, and this is the crux of the matter, a woman isn't going to win against a man in physical altercations. Women have almost a zero chance of overpowering a man if he should become violent. it's for that reason, that I do favor a certain common sense approach and recognition of that fact in our courts, schools, work places, apartments etc. Women do need protection from the men who get violent.

I suppose there's another big difference too, men are going to try to get sexual with women. I don't know if you read about Aziz Ansari's disastrous date with a woman but it's an excellent example of a man's pushy sexual behavior. It was part of the MeToo movement collection of stories, but in that case, I'm sure the woman thought she was entirely innocent and Aziz was totally pushy and rude. However, I don't think she wasn't aware of the signals she was giving him. She was the one who originally came up to him and ditched her boyfriend to spend the evening with him. When they had a date, he was hurrying through the dinner so they could go back to his place. She could have spoken up then but she wasn't assertive enough or misread the cues. When they got to his place, they petted each other, talked about photography, petted some more and well, read the article. It's a classic she said, he said thing. Read about that date and realize, trying to get a grown man who is single and looking for sex to not act the way Aziz did would be pretty difficult. Men are programmed to think that way and when they find an opportunity, a lot of single men are going to try for it.

The feminist in the article you brought out, may possibly think Aziz should have been taught better how to respect women's space and in a certain sense, I agree with her. Aziz wasn't very smooth and he was pushy. On the other hand, women also have a duty to be clear to men. The woman Aziz dated was sending the most crazy mixed signals ever. She thinks it was a sort of rape, but she has him call a cab and waited in his apartment. A bad date sometimes leaves a person feeling icky, maybe even violated but that doesn't mean there's a rape. Women have a responsibility to be clear about their feelings and intentions. They also have to be aware that for most men, they're going to try for it. We're great, as women, at using words and sometimes, we got to use the tough ones too. If anything, what we need to do is teach our daughters that it's okay to hurt a man's feelings if he wants something from her that she doesn't want to give. I like that feminist thing going around about not forcing girls to hug relatives or parent's friends on holidays. The problem with girls is that they're people pleasers and thus sometimes run into a problem between being "nice" and saying what they mean or being torn between the two emotionally. Maybe it's a better idea for mothers to teach their daughters when to be "nice" and when to be a "bitch": when it is okay to hurt feelings and when it's not.


In any case, the goal of raising a son isn't much different from raising a daughter.
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Old 05-22-2018, 12:02 AM   #9
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Here's the Aziz Ansari article. I actually feel bad for the guy to have his bad date thrown all over the internet but it's funny too.

https://babe.net/2018/01/13/aziz-ansari-28355

I feel sorry for the woman too, but mostly, I see her as a mutton head for a) sending obvious mixed signals and then blaming him for the whole thing and b) blasting it out on the internet as if she's the victim. She made herself the victim.

Rule Number One for clueless women on dates: If you have dinner and drinks with a man on a date and he invites you back to his place, he's going to try for sex. If you don't want sex but continue to hang around, he's going to try again. That is an unwritten law of dating.
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Old 05-22-2018, 12:10 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snipershot View Post
If what jordan peterson says is "bullshit", then what she says is also singularly bullshit. This is the problem with people writing inside an echo chamber. The left middle class think they are societies moral arbiters. Which they are not. Maybe its the decline of the church, and all these causes are simply filling a vacuum.

I see jordan peterson as a classic liberal, he even says so, and the left is calling him politically 'right wing'. I didnt think i would see such blatantly polar nonsensical views in my lifetime. I always thought time would improve how we live, but its still a rat race.
Jordan Peterson says he's a classical liberal. I'd say he's a moderate and probably leans center left. He's not nearly as socially conservative as I am. I don't think what he says is bullshit but I think traditional approaches generally work best which is why they're traditional approaches. For instance, Mike Pence's refusal to go anywhere with a woman who isn't his wife, is pretty smart for Christian morality and just practical reasons. That makes a whole lot more sense than trying to come up with a whole lot of if/then rules about every sort of scenario a married man could encounter. I doubt Jordan Peterson would be in favor of that as a practical approach for most men in today's society and he would even say, it may be a discriminating approach. I don't think Jordan Peterson is bullshit though.

The article is bullshit.
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