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Old 11-13-2017, 06:08 PM   #71
Paul Parnitzke
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Default "It stands alone and does not change" ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericredbeard View Post
Firstly, God need not be a person for anything I have posited to be valid, and secondly, anyone who has ever paid attention to other posts I have made would not assume that I assume that God is a person in the sense that God is a human type entity.

There is a thing confusedly formed,
Born before heaven and earth.
Silent and void
It stands alone and does not change,
Goes round and does not weary.
It is capable of being the mother of the world.
I know not its name
So I style it ‘the way’.

--- Tao Te Ching Ch. 25

It's a relief to finally talk to someone who knows precisely what God is. Namely, impersonal. Whatever that means. Evidently you believe in a 'creative force', but can't believe that there could be any kind of consciousness directing that force. Keep in mind that absence of proof is not proof of absence. How can you know to a certainty that God did not speak to Moses from the burning bush? How can you know that Ezekiel didn't really see what he said he saw? How do you 'know' that the instances of divine actions described in the Bible, the Torah, and the Koran are all bunk? Because they don't square with anything in your experience of anyone else you know of? How do you think that that Central American felt when Europeans first appeared on his shoreline? Howdy Doody it just can't be possible!!! And if you described Europeans and their technology to him the week before that day he would have sounded just like you: "No way that exists....you're nuts....no evidence in all of history.....fable and fiction...". So tell me again how you know what God is or isn't. Tell me how you know what doesn't exist, when others claim to have seen and heard things.

As for God's purpose only being revealed from within ourselves, why shouldn't we take into account what we observe outside of ourselves? Do you ignore everything that you personally haven't experienced? Do you ignore advice from people who have been where you contemplate going? How can you be sure that that road sign is telling you the truth if you haven't ever been down that road yourself? Do you think that a Zen acolyte listening to a Zen Master's teachings is a waste of time? Do you think that thinkers with great ideas came up with them without the benefit of an awareness of the thinking of previous great minds? Sure, we all have to take those last steps for ourselves, and at times we're on our own...but only a fool acts as though they are the only person who has ever wrestled with specific spiritual questions, and any input from anyone else is useless. It reminds me of the three year old daughter in my lap grabbing the steering wheel of my truck while she declares that "I can drive Dad!" Eh, you need some teaching first Sweetheart. Think through before you posit such grand generalizations without expressing exactly what you mean.

Mu applies. If by 'correctly' you mean that I haven't shoehorned my thinking into the narrow yard you've confined yourself and your own thinking to, you'd be correct. Expand your discussion to include what I'm talking about. I'm not obligated to come over, stoop down and pet your dog chained to the post of your assumptions. I'm just walking by. Come walk with me or you can stay in your yard, chained to your post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericredbeard View Post
Firstly, God need not be a person for anything I have posited to be valid, and secondly, anyone who has ever paid attention to other posts I have made would not assume that I assume that God is a person in the sense that God is a human type entity.

There is a thing confusedly formed,
Born before heaven and earth.
Silent and void
It stands alone and does not change,
Goes round and does not weary.
It is capable of being the mother of the world.
I know not its name
So I style it ‘the way’.

--- Tao Te Ching Ch. 25
Ok.
So far so good then, but, the "Tao Te Ching" or "the way" that you quoted is incorrect.

"It stands alone and does not change" ?

Actually, "it" does change and "it" has evolved.
Cosmic Consciousness is that "it" and has done so along with the physical Cosmos as well.
See:
http://forums.liveleak.com/showpost....&postcount=237

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericredbeard View Post

It's a relief to finally talk to someone who knows precisely what God is. Namely, impersonal. Whatever that means.
Indeed, God or it is impersonal, of which means that God or it is not a person, yet,
although it is all within all persons and it is all within all that exists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericredbeard View Post

Evidently you believe in a 'creative force', but can't believe that there could be any kind of consciousness directing that force.
Yes and no.
There is a impersonal "creative force", and there is a consciousness that is directing that force.
However, that "consciousness" is mostly of the kind that "knows without knowing that it knows".
Only Humans have a "consciousness" that has evolved to a "self-awareness" of being able to "know that it knows" as well.
Humans are Co-creators, thereby with the Universal Mind or Universal Consciousness that's all within everything that exists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericredbeard View Post
Keep in mind that absence of proof is not proof of absence. How can you know to a certainty that God did not speak to Moses from the burning bush? How can you know that Ezekiel didn't really see what he said he saw? How do you 'know' that the instances of divine actions described in the Bible, the Torah, and the Koran are all bunk? Because they don't square with anything in your experience of anyone else you know of?
Agreed.
I don't know nor claim "certainty" of almost anything that allegedly happened in the past.
However, I do know or I do claim probability from "Natural Law" and from actual human history.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof and evidence of which those stories have neither.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericredbeard View Post

How do you think that that Central American felt when Europeans first appeared on his shoreline? Howdy Doody it just can't be possible!!!
Which time?
The "very first time" they "became as Gods" to the native Central Americans.
That they thought it actually was possible was that these "Gods" returned or
this belief made it possible for them to be reconquered by the "White Gods",
or once again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericredbeard View Post

And if you described Europeans and their technology to him the week before that day he would have sounded just like you: "No way that exists....you're nuts....no evidence in all of history.....fable and fiction...". So tell me again how you know what God is or isn't. Tell me how you know what doesn't exist, when others claim to have seen and heard things.
Perhaps.
Again, I don't know nor claim "certainty" of almost anything that allegedly happened in the past.
However, I do know or I do claim probability from "Natural Law" and from actual human history.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof and evidence of which those stories have neither.
I know that "God" is not any person, but is found only within one's own self, as it is in all:
An impersonal creative force, just as is "gravity", and as are all other natural law "forces".

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericredbeard View Post

As for God's purpose only being revealed from within ourselves, why shouldn't we take into account what we observe outside of ourselves? Do you ignore everything that you personally haven't experienced? Do you ignore advice from people who have been where you contemplate going? How can you be sure that that road sign is telling you the truth if you haven't ever been down that road yourself? Do you think that a Zen acolyte listening to a Zen Master's teachings is a waste of time? Do you think that thinkers with great ideas came up with them without the benefit of an awareness of the thinking of previous great minds?
Why?
Because what "we observe outside ourselves" is "actually and only all within ourselves".
Every last bit of it.
Any others may only point the way, but, only yourself can experience reality for yourself.
God's purpose can always and only be revealed from within ones own self as that where God or it actually and only "resides": all within.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericredbeard View Post
Sure, we all have to take those last steps for ourselves, and at times we're on our own...but only a fool acts as though they are the only person who has ever wrestled with specific spiritual questions, and any input from anyone else is useless. It reminds me of the three year old daughter in my lap grabbing the steering wheel of my truck while she declares that "I can drive Dad!" Eh, you need some teaching first Sweetheart. Think through before you posit such grand generalizations without expressing exactly what you mean.
Indeed, I do agree.
But, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.
The "will to learn to drive" must be there "first".
Only then does the "teacher" show up to teach.
You might want to take your own advice and "not misread" what I have written.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericredbeard View Post

Mu applies. If by 'correctly' you mean that I haven't shoehorned my thinking into the narrow yard you've confined yourself and your own thinking to, you'd be correct. Expand your discussion to include what I'm talking about. I'm not obligated to come over, stoop down and pet your dog chained to the post of your assumptions. I'm just walking by. Come walk with me or you can stay in your yard, chained to your post.
No "mu" just doesn't apply "correctly" only because "God" is not any person, yet,
nor any "He or She", yet.
See:
http://forums.liveleak.com/showpost....1&postcount=62
"Please, whenever you become privy to God's entire purpose in creating man as man to a certainty, do let us all in on His plan. The errors of presumption are yours, the sin was Adam and Eve's, and God's purpose remain a mystery to mortal minds."

"Apotheosis" is what man's true purpose is if he actually has the "will to do so" or
and if otherwise, then not. The "shoehorn and chains and Plato's Cave" are all only
your own quite false reasoning, false assumptions, and false dogmatism, not mine.

There are none so blind as those that "will" not see!
Walk on by, then.
Free will.

Last edited by Paul Parnitzke; 11-13-2017 at 06:35 PM. Reason: Added links.
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