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Old 01-10-2008, 06:42 PM   #11
Bannister46
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Wink When the oil runs dry

Will be the day the Americans have spent their last dollar.
The wolves will feed on the broke.

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Eventually a pragmatic people will realize that all input with no positive results is not worth it.......... the Americans will eventually give up and leave. the Iraqis will have blown their best chance and the wolves will feed on the remains. HAHAHA wait till oil runs dry, the wolves will feed on each other.
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Old 01-10-2008, 07:03 PM   #12
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The future of Iraq boils down to their ability to fend off their own demons within,ISLAM.They do that,and they'll be alright,but my guess is it'll never happen,Sunnis and Shias were born to fight eachother and eventually after we do leave they'll be at eachothers throats in no time.
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Old 01-10-2008, 08:20 PM   #13
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Lightbulb A Few Points

Wow, Great thread here!!

The whole reason for electing respresentatives is to prevent tyranny of the classes AND the masses. Historically, a democratic republic works the best in this respect.

Somewhat Random but Relevant Points for Consideration:

1. Iraq can't be separated from the overall war on terror. To understand what's happening in Iraq, the roots of the GWOT need to be understood. My opinion on this matter, the conflict arises due to a crisis within the Islamic world. A sort of "reformation" is taking place and spilling over. The Islamic world is struggling for a greater share of modernity but remains mired in a sort of medieval mindset. The GWOT is generational. There is no clear beginning and there will be no clear ending.

2. Ultimately, in any war, it's not the defenders who decide if there's a war, it's the attackers. Leaving Iraq will not stop the attackers from seeking bloodshed there or here, it will simply switch the location and tactics (I believe that if Iraq were not invaded, the same sort of occurences (eg, foreign insurgent elements would go to Afghanistan instead of Iraq to wage a radical jihad) and the same sort of arguments would be made about Afghanistan. Invading Iraq simply switched the focus).

3. As Machiavelli said (ohmygosh, I am quoting Machiavelli !!!!), "Whoever considers, then, the one and the other of these states, will find that it is difficult to acquire the state of the Turk, but [once] conquered, it is easy to hold. And, you will find, on the contrary, that it is in some respects easier to take the state of France, but that it is with great difficulty that one holds on to it." -The Prince.

The difference in Machiavelli's mind is that one had a strong established ruler that the people reverred (Turks) and so they fought much harder but once fallen, would except almost any ruler. The other, having several internal factions and parties (France) was easy to conquer because the factions could be taken individual, but that the factions never remained subdued for long so it seems as constant insurgency. The war in Iraq is much like Machiavelli's view of France. A great deal of factions that pop up, are subdued, morph and re-emerge. Although it appears a never ending chaos, it's much more a sort of deadly factional posturing. It's also endemic to terrorism, both in Iraq and around the world.

Don't shoot me for quoting Machiavelli
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Old 01-11-2008, 12:18 AM   #14
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when were you there? I'm always interested to hear from ppl who've actually been there, as you would know better then us, who just hear the news. whatta you think?
You moron see the pic of the soldier in his avatar....that's him....he's been there and fought there......what have you done? If anyone knows he does, you've embarrassed yourself.
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Old 01-11-2008, 01:00 AM   #15
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Cool Generational wars without end

Have costs which are also generational.
This is the reality of a capitalist war machine.
Our cost to occupy exceeds any benefit for the occupation.
That is a statement which I defy you to respond to in economic terms.

The enemy's cost are low and he will continue fighting until the hearts and minds are won or we are ejected.

I'm betting on this war ending with a whimper as we hand over provinces to "Iraqi solutions" similar to the British example and the war on terror in Iraq will subside into oblivion.

The Roman method of genocidal obliteration is the only shock and awe that can win a war of occupation. Bassically you have to Kill or co-opt (hire)every male of fighting age.
This has been Petraeus solution. Blanket anbar in Cash and watch the casualty rate drop.

Unfortunately this even further weighs on the blance sheet and Ameircan popular support falls further as their tax money is essentially paid to terrorists as bribes and tribute not to kill our soldiers.

One months expenses in Iraq will resolve california's entire budget deficit. Californians will have a stark choice, Keep paying for Iraq or lose vital services.

I think the November election will deliver their answer. I suspect the impending Recession will certainly tend to put other states in the same boat and they too will have to make a choice on where their resources are directed.

Of course Republicans could always start asking for massive increases in taxes...

And snow falls up hill in hades.

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Old 01-11-2008, 05:01 AM   #16
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fuck terrorists!
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Old 01-11-2008, 07:02 AM   #17
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otaaaaaaaaaaaaay
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Old 01-11-2008, 12:54 PM   #18
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Hi Aquina, Excellent response and good points.

You know we were all brought up our entire lives to believe that we really are all the same; that we all have ethics, morals, standards that would be recognized or at least tolerated cross-culture and without fail.

A great big wonderful melting pot and to think otherwise would unfavorable logic.

Well im not too convinced of that anymore...I am starting to think those teachers of mine never actually went to places like Africa, Iraq, Kuwait, Afgahnistan etc...and spent any amount of time there, like i have.

Im starting to think they were full of shit.

And this is all just a clash of cultures more than religion...the stone age vs the 21st century.

Even our trend for self-governance has had to be dragged into the 21st century, kicking and screaming...There are people here who still think Communism (despite having failed every where its been and killed 100 million people) JUST MIGHT WORK if we give it another shot!





Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquina1300 View Post
Wow, Great thread here!!

The whole reason for electing respresentatives is to prevent tyranny of the classes AND the masses. Historically, a democratic republic works the best in this respect.

Somewhat Random but Relevant Points for Consideration:

1. Iraq can't be separated from the overall war on terror. To understand what's happening in Iraq, the roots of the GWOT need to be understood. My opinion on this matter, the conflict arises due to a crisis within the Islamic world. A sort of "reformation" is taking place and spilling over. The Islamic world is struggling for a greater share of modernity but remains mired in a sort of medieval mindset. The GWOT is generational. There is no clear beginning and there will be no clear ending.

2. Ultimately, in any war, it's not the defenders who decide if there's a war, it's the attackers. Leaving Iraq will not stop the attackers from seeking bloodshed there or here, it will simply switch the location and tactics (I believe that if Iraq were not invaded, the same sort of occurences (eg, foreign insurgent elements would go to Afghanistan instead of Iraq to wage a radical jihad) and the same sort of arguments would be made about Afghanistan. Invading Iraq simply switched the focus).

3. As Machiavelli said (ohmygosh, I am quoting Machiavelli !!!!), "Whoever considers, then, the one and the other of these states, will find that it is difficult to acquire the state of the Turk, but [once] conquered, it is easy to hold. And, you will find, on the contrary, that it is in some respects easier to take the state of France, but that it is with great difficulty that one holds on to it." -The Prince.

The difference in Machiavelli's mind is that one had a strong established ruler that the people reverred (Turks) and so they fought much harder but once fallen, would except almost any ruler. The other, having several internal factions and parties (France) was easy to conquer because the factions could be taken individual, but that the factions never remained subdued for long so it seems as constant insurgency. The war in Iraq is much like Machiavelli's view of France. A great deal of factions that pop up, are subdued, morph and re-emerge. Although it appears a never ending chaos, it's much more a sort of deadly factional posturing. It's also endemic to terrorism, both in Iraq and around the world.

Don't shoot me for quoting Machiavelli
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Old 01-11-2008, 09:24 PM   #19
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Talking ummm, Read at Your Own Peril!!

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Originally Posted by Dawsopolis View Post
Hi Aquina, Excellent response and good points.
Hello Dawsopolis
Thanks. This is an awesome thread because it gets to the "heart" of the varying opinions concerning Iraq and GWOT.

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Originally Posted by Dawsopolis View Post
You know we were all brought up our entire lives to believe that we really are all the same; that we all have ethics, morals, standards that would be recognized or at least tolerated cross-culture and without fail.

A great big wonderful melting pot and to think otherwise would unfavorable logic..
I think the idea is to teach the young these principles in order to prevent as much destructive factions from arising as possible. When the youth are taught otherwise, destruction is inevitable. As adults, we should comprehend that what we were taught as children in a civil society is more of an ideal than an actuality.

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Well im not too convinced of that anymore...I am starting to think those teachers of mine never actually went to places like Africa, Iraq, Kuwait, Afgahnistan etc...and spent any amount of time there, like i have.

Im starting to think they were full of shit...
Of course those teachers were full of ideological mental meanderings. That's intrinsic to the teaching profession. Moreover, it's what most decent parents want their children to be taught. Ideological thinking, abstracted from the reality of the world, is painfully evident in every sort of school in the Western World. It's especially destructive at the larger Universities and the Ivy League. The GREATEST flaw in College and post-grad today is the almost COMPLETE absence of any academic studies dealing with the art, history or science of warfare. It's as if because war isn't a "good" thing, it ought to be a "forgotten" thing--Ignored as if unworthy of serious thought and study. Thus, the idea of a military actually being rational and professional is almost an anathema to the "ivory tower". Thus the tension arises.

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Originally Posted by Dawsopolis View Post
And this is all just a clash of cultures more than religion...the stone age vs the 21st century.
It's a clash within a civilization that spilled over. The islamic world is struggling within itself. During the 20th century, various different methods have been tried by the Islamic world in order to modernize: Alliances with European Nations, Nationalism, Pan-Arab Nationalism, Communism, Fascism, Tyranny and Theocracy. So far, NONE of these attempts produced the desired result. Democracy (whatever form that may take) has yet to be fully attempted. It's the "last, best, hope" in a certain sense.

The reason this conflict spilled over into the west is three-fold.

1) Israel has been aligned with the Free West virtually from it's inception and held fast as an ally during the Cold War. (although, many israelis after WWII were actually communists, read about the kibbutz). With a few exceptions, almost all Islamic nations sided with the USSR during the Cold War. This created an "us versus them" mentality that was further encouraged by the polarizing constructs that Islamic thought and jurisprudence easily lends itself.

2) For largely humanitarian reasons combined with cold war strategy, Western Nations began accepting dissidents from Tyrannical Islamic nations --naively viewing these dissidents as obvious "pro-liberty, anti-oppression" agitators. Some of them were just that. Some were dissidents who were calling for "less liberty, more oppression". Although the West was at odds with many of the Islamic leaders, the domestic opponents of those leaders were not "our friends". Thus radical Islam was given a foothold and a "base" of operation in the West to carry out their designs. In time, the designs changed from simply being an overthrow of a particular leader or government to becoming a "conquer the world for Islam" type mentality. This is one of the DIRECT causes of internal Islamic struggles spilling over into the Western and even Far Eastern nations.

3) It MUST be admitted that oil throughout the 20th century and 21st century is a valuable commodity. Modernization demands an energy source. Arabia has oil. Between developed nations, mercantilism has little negative impact, because developed nations see it as just that, a mercantile relationship. However, it's a much more complex relationship when one nation is developed and the other is not. Arabia presents such a tangled mess. Generally, it's the ruling families that make the decisions of who to sell to, at what price and how the profits will be divided. Obviously, they are grossly unfair and in many ways, heartless. Envy, greed and hatred is the immediate result. In order to keep a "revolution" at bay, the ruling families have turned to blaming the west for the condition that many arabs and muslims find themselves in. It's an ancient tactic of all monarchies and oligarchies. Unfortunately, such demonization works, especially when cloaked in religion, and Islam lends itself to such demonization. Inevitably, the very ones we must exchange with, become the ones that stir hatred against us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawsopolis View Post
Even our trend for self-governance has had to be dragged into the 21st century, kicking and screaming...There are people here who still think Communism (despite having failed every where its been and killed 100 million people) JUST MIGHT WORK if we give it another shot!
Communists are just ignorant in the ways of the world. A governance based on an ideological system can NEVER be practical simply because most people and thus societies are not ideological by nature.

FREEDOM!!
LET IT RING!!

It was said by many during the Civil War, WWI and WWII, that a free nation could not exist with "such people" on account of culture, religion or what have you. And as assuredly as you see no hope for those you were among, many like you saw no hope among peoples and nations that are free and democratic in the present.

In particular, as an example, let's take Japan. Japan had never been a "free" nation prior to WWII, they believed their emperor a god, shintoism was based on a racist notion that Japanese were the greatest among men and so would always triumph. Many in the west argued that Japan could never enter the modern world and could never be democratic. Japan is doing better than just fine today. In the 80's, Japan's economy was considered so strong and stable that there were real, albeit misplaced, fears that Japan would surpass the USA. (good book, Embracing Defeat, covers this topic).

Likewise, many today think that a free and democratic Islamic arab nation is a pipedream. I propse this alternative view.

The Struggle within the Islamic world occurred BECAUSE there was a desire to shake off despotism and tyranny. Like the European Reformation, this struggle's immediate result is destruction, puritanism, fanatism, "sacred" murders and theological silliness. But the subsequent age, gave birth to the Renaissance and the Enlightment. Islamic Children of today may become the most radical force on Earth, but some of them and most of their children will turn their backs on such wontan death and destruction. No one wishes to raise a family or live out their lives in constant chaos. There is only one alternative left, and only one path that remains before them, and that is a civil, enlightened society.
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Yeah but they're Moozlims. Kill 'em all! -Wimbly
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