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Old 12-13-2017, 06:27 PM   #31
Paul Parnitzke
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Default Exactly, nonsense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericredbeard View Post
So you declare "nonsense" and then immediately offer your own preferred opinion (that of David Irvine actually) on what is really a different topic, without refuting the proposition that Hitler was a megalomaniacal control freak who demanded subservience and obedience at all times from all in Germany....including and perhaps especially from his Generals...to the point of military dysfunction and lost victories. Whatever.

Nonsense is the fantasy that Great Britain was a special case when it came to the way Hitler lied, manipulated, and deceived a generation across Europe which remembered the horrors of WWI and wished to avoid them. Nonsense is the proposition that England was exempt from the shabby treatment those swarthy chaps were in for (well, they aren't cut of the same fiber we are you know...) Of course Hitler was 'reasonable', so the fantasy goes.... Why, what sort of man could behold England's glory and not be moved to respect it? Wouldn't any man of substance see the unique and extraordinary value of the Empire (to those who enjoyed its privilege, yes, but to those whom the value 'trickled down' as well no doubt)? One look at England and Herr Hitler knew that we were a force to be reckoned with. One to be regarded as more worthy of honesty and straight dealing than Czechs, Slovaks, Poles, Danes, the Dutch, Belgians, Norwegians, Russians, and those God-awful Frogs....alone among peoples, really. Sad lot, that war. We all could have been sipping brandy and making millions across the globe just like old times if only Churchill and his warmongers hadn't insisted on a war..... What a croc of arrogant, conceited bullshit.

History has proven your fantasy just that. Hitler lied about the Sudetenland being all he was in need of. Then he invaded Poland without cause, lied to Stalin with his 'non-aggression pact' (not worth the paper that it was written on was his comment after he wiped his ass with it on June 22, 1942). He treated his Italian allies like crap and then as enemies later on, and then showed just how 'reasonable' he was by insisting that his own beloved German people be fed alive into the maw of his own defeat to the last man woman and child long after decency would have compelled surrender.

Churchill was right about peace with the Nazis. The men fantasizing about the greatness of their Empire giving them special standing in the eyes of that monster, desperate to preserve their privilege, were wrong. And Churchill was right about the Empire as well. He said, "The empires of the future are empires of the mind.." Churchill had his share of political failure...mostly because he wasn't a liar who would declare that a turd was a gemstone if it furthered his own interests...but he had a long and storied career of success as a military man. Thank God Churchill led the England of his time rather than the self-deluded has-beens like Neville Chamberlain who Hitler could play for fools.
Yawn.

Churchill was correct about one thing and that was his comment about WWII:
"We killed the wrong pig!", meaning that the "Bolsheviks" were the real "pigs"
and that he had destroyed his own Empire by declaring war against Germany.

Notice the elephant in the room. War was declared against Germany because
Hitler invaded Poland. However, the Soviets also invaded Poland at the same
time and were not declared war against. Obviously, the jig was up even then.

The lies and propaganda to foment war against Germany came a good six years
prior to the official outbreak on September 1st, 1939. It came as soon as 1933,
after Hitler was elected overwhelmingly to office, and a Jewish boycott was then
declared by the World Jewish Congress. Apparently, you are just a rube of these
same carnies, as most folks actually all have been, ever since then if not before.
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Old Yesterday, 04:49 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Parnitzke View Post
Yawn.

Churchill was correct about one thing and that was his comment about WWII:
"We killed the wrong pig!", meaning that the "Bolsheviks" were the real "pigs"
and that he had destroyed his own Empire by declaring war against Germany.

Notice the elephant in the room. War was declared against Germany because
Hitler invaded Poland. However, the Soviets also invaded Poland at the same
time and were not declared war against. Obviously, the jig was up even then.

The lies and propaganda to foment war against Germany came a good six years
prior to the official outbreak on September 1st, 1939. It came as soon as 1933,
after Hitler was elected overwhelmingly to office, and a Jewish boycott was then
declared by the World Jewish Congress. Apparently, you are just a rube of these
same carnies, as most folks actually all have been, ever since then if not before.
And from the clarity of your alternate fantasy, from the minds of those privileged dotards who would try to hold back the tides of history to their preferred position, do tell us HOW the British could have possibly stayed out of that war and preserved their Empire. In the face of the humiliation of the Japanese throwing them out of the entire Pacific, resulting in the myth of their invincibility being destroyed in the eyes of the Burmese, Indians, Singaporeans, Arabs, and Chinese... In the face of a Germany free to concentrate ALL of her land forces against Russia, and then mull over what to do with London after digesting Moscow. In the face of a United States wondering how to help Britain while she dithers about, unwilling to help herself.

Outline how that strategy would have worked. Do tell.

*yawn*
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Old Yesterday, 06:06 PM   #33
Paul Parnitzke
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Default I am anti-Tyranny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericredbeard View Post
And from the clarity of your alternate fantasy, from the minds of those privileged dotards who would try to hold back the tides of history to their preferred position, do tell us HOW the British could have possibly stayed out of that war and preserved their Empire. In the face of the humiliation of the Japanese throwing them out of the entire Pacific, resulting in the myth of their invincibility being destroyed in the eyes of the Burmese, Indians, Singaporeans, Arabs, and Chinese... In the face of a Germany free to concentrate ALL of her land forces against Russia, and then mull over what to do with London after digesting Moscow. In the face of a United States wondering how to help Britain while she dithers about, unwilling to help herself.

Outline how that strategy would have worked. Do tell.

*yawn*
The only fantasy and delusion is only your own "tides of history" nonsense.

If the British had negotiated peace after Dunkirk then the war in the west would be over.
Hitler would not have had to worry about fighting a two front war and could have had all
of his forces concentrated on the USSR, more likely resulting in victory against Bolshevism.

Without the USSR there would have been no Communist China, or any other nation under it.
No Cold War. No Independence "support" to throw out the British from their empire nor from
any other European Empire.

Israel would not exist at all. No wars over it. Muslims would not hate the west because of it.
The USA and Japan would have come to terms instead of unconditional surrender and the
need to use atomic weapons to force it abandoned.The world would have been a much more
ordered and peaceful place. We would be colonizing space by now were it not for all the wars
and the waste of so much of our blood and treasure to pull our enemies chestnuts out of fires
that they themselves had instigated.

Those are the actual facts of history that can not be reasonably denied whatsoever.
The West had committed suicide with it's twin foolish brothers wars of WWI and WWII.
Those that do not learn the lessons of history are all doomed to repeat them till they do.

Last edited by Paul Parnitzke; Yesterday at 06:28 PM.
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Old Yesterday, 11:28 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Parnitzke View Post
The only fantasy and delusion is only your own "tides of history" nonsense.

If the British had negotiated peace after Dunkirk then the war in the west would be over.
Hitler would not have had to worry about fighting a two front war and could have had all
of his forces concentrated on the USSR, more likely resulting in victory against Bolshevism.

Without the USSR there would have been no Communist China, or any other nation under it.
No Cold War. No Independence "support" to throw out the British from their empire nor from
any other European Empire.

Israel would not exist at all. No wars over it. Muslims would not hate the west because of it.
The USA and Japan would have come to terms instead of unconditional surrender and the
need to use atomic weapons to force it abandoned.The world would have been a much more
ordered and peaceful place. We would be colonizing space by now were it not for all the wars
and the waste of so much of our blood and treasure to pull our enemies chestnuts out of fires
that they themselves had instigated.

Those are the actual facts of history that can not be reasonably denied whatsoever.
The West had committed suicide with it's twin foolish brothers wars of WWI and WWII.
Those that do not learn the lessons of history are all doomed to repeat them till they do.
Hahaha
You should make a few more assumptions,
Firstly that a victorious, militarist, genocidal Germany would not be a far worse outcome than an ascendant Soviet Union.
Secondly that the Soviets would have been defeated is far from certain, a Victorious Soviet Union that had been left to fight the Germans alone would be armed, vengeful and unstoppable
Thirdly that Hitler could be trusted to honor agreements in the first place, he had already dishonored agreements made with Britain
Churchill made many serious blunders but his one stelllar success was refusing to buckle and to rally his people under the threat NAZIsm
All your assumptions amount to nothing more than drivel
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Old Today, 09:46 AM   #35
ericredbeard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Parnitzke View Post
The only fantasy and delusion is only your own "tides of history" nonsense.

If the British had negotiated peace after Dunkirk then the war in the west would be over.
Hitler would not have had to worry about fighting a two front war and could have had all
of his forces concentrated on the USSR, more likely resulting in victory against Bolshevism.

Without the USSR there would have been no Communist China, or any other nation under it.
No Cold War. No Independence "support" to throw out the British from their empire nor from
any other European Empire.

Israel would not exist at all. No wars over it. Muslims would not hate the west because of it.
The USA and Japan would have come to terms instead of unconditional surrender and the
need to use atomic weapons to force it abandoned.The world would have been a much more
ordered and peaceful place. We would be colonizing space by now were it not for all the wars
and the waste of so much of our blood and treasure to pull our enemies chestnuts out of fires
that they themselves had instigated.

Those are the actual facts of history that can not be reasonably denied whatsoever.
The West had committed suicide with it's twin foolish brothers wars of WWI and WWII.
Those that do not learn the lessons of history are all doomed to repeat them till they do.
History would have been quite different, yes. You mention the known negative developments that would have changed, but your narrative stops there, as if world events are static....and they are not.

If Britain had negotiated peace after Dunkirk, what sort of terms would have Der Fuehrer likely demanded? Firstly, that British forces in North Africa immediately cease operations against the Italians and remove themselves from Greece. This would allow the Axis to consolidate their position threatening the Suez Canal (and set the stage for them to seize the Iranian oil fields with a much better supplied and built up Afrika Korps, cutting the British Empire in two and opening another approach to the USSR's Baku oil fields if need be...) Hitler would have insisted on zero movement of American forces onto British soil (no need for that anyway since "peace was guaranteed"). The moment Hitler invaded the USSR he would have forbidden any aid convoys from Britain to Murmansk, and in the unlikely event that the USA entered the war in the West (why, since Britain wasn't in it?), the Kriegsmarine's U-Boats could have concentrated in the area between North America, Iceland, and the Kola Peninsula instead of across the entire Atlantic...to deadly effect: no aid to European Russia.

I agree with you that Russia would have been defeated. That development would have four consequences:

1. Fully half of Germany's existing and surviving combat power would have been freed up from the east for operations elsewhere (and nonaggression pacts/peace treaties such as that signed with Britain were just worthless paper in Adolf's opinion...)

2. Germany would obtain incredible oil, natural gas, and other mineral resources to fuel its war machine. Increased production of superior weapons such as Tiger and King Tiger tanks, the Stg 44 assault rifle, Panzerfausts, and the 88mm Flak 18/37, etc. would enable significant upgrades to Germany's Italian, Rumanian, Hungarian, and Finnish allied forces as well as her own. The days of Germany's lack of raw materials playing a significant role from 1942 onward would cease to exist. German shipyards would vomit out twice the number of u-boats in half the time they did during the war we knew.

3. Germany would gain time to develop existing emergent technologies that would fundamentally enhance its warfighting capabilities. jet aircraft (air superiority fighters, strategic bombers, and marine/ground strike craft), wire guided air to air missiles, tactical and strategic missiles such as the V2 (think V3, V4...) in significant quantities, increased use of radar for coastal, naval, and air defense coordination and AA gunnery...and whatever else Werner Von Braun and a host of engineers and scientists would have had the time to develop. (Of course, the Germany that conquered all of continental Europe and the USSR wouldn't think of scrapping its peace treaty with London and attack using all this stuff....}

4. Lastly, the Nazi's Final Solution would have been completed to within more than 99% of Europe and Russia's Jews annihilated, along with everyone else nazi ideology identified as Untermenschen. This would include the entire populations of Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, Serbia, Czechoslovakia, and Russia.

Of course the USA would have defeated Japan....and then what?

Here's what: The victorious Nazi ogre would then contemplate its next move. In their ideological quest to rid the world of Jews, the Nazis would arm the Muslims and instigate their genocide of the Middle East's Jews (and Christians and whoever else the Muslims find offensive...). So we would still have the jihad problem, and the Arabs would still throw the English out of Jordan, Egypt, Oman, the French out of Syria, Algeria, French Morocco, etc. The peoples in Asia that fought against the Japanese would still want their independence from their past colonial masters, so England would still lose Singapore, Burma, Hong Kong (and don't think that the Indians would watch all that and be content to remain subjected), the Dutch would lose Indonesia, the Portuguese would lose Macau, the French would lose Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos, etc.

The only thing left to decide, rather than whether the Communist Bloc or the Capitalist West would prevail in the Cold War, would be to decide whether the Nazi Bloc (German led Europe, the German East---formerly slavic lands including most of Siberia--- Franco's Spain, Finland and 'neutral' Sweden) or the United States would prevail. In that conflict, the first move for the Nazi Bloc would be the invasion of the UK to secure its western coastline. This assumes that Berlin would wait that long to attack across the Channel.

You're right of course. History would have been different if Churchill had made 'peace' with Hitler in 1939/40. I think Churchill knew it too.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIEUfi9V-1Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nT2LK0VC5NE
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Last edited by ericredbeard; Today at 10:35 AM.
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Old Today, 11:39 AM   #36
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Russia can not and will not ever be defeated, keep wishing in one hand and shitting in the other. WW2 was a 4 way race to see who was going to replace the UK as industrial superpower, all the major players became bigger economies than the UK, even lowly Japan. Today UK is as relevant as Greece or Spain.
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