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Old 07-07-2017, 05:33 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by UKatheist View Post




discuss?
And what's your opinion?
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Old 07-07-2017, 09:19 PM   #12
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What with its history of enduring against centuries of invasions, occupations, being erased from the map of Europe outright, and suffering genocide. while successfully maintaining its language, its culture and its people, Poland lends Trump a perfect subject to highlight the constructive virtues of nationalism, patriotism, and ethnic identity in the face of a (western) european culture that denigrates those same virtues as destructive faults.

The current progressive social philosophy recommending the dissolution of national borders, culture-busting immigration, multiple gender identities, policy-making and governance by process of ideologically approved committees, the abolishment of Christianity while Islam's traditions are respected, and the socialist economic model is a hard sell in Poland, a land which is overwhelmingly Catholic, a land which suffered one fifth of its population killed while invaded and occupied by not only Nazi Germany but also the USSR, a land which celebrates its nationalist heroes such as King Jan Sobieski (whose coalition routed the Ottoman (muslim) invasion of Europe in 1683, and whose people were the first to throw off communist domination by the Soviet Bloc through sheer stubborn willpower and a "go fuck yourself we're done with this shit" attitude (which led to the dissolution of the entire USSR).

The speech was filled with repetition (as all of Trump's addresses are), but aside from that it was a wonderful expression of traditional values enduring and overcoming the dysfunctional, suicidal idiocy swallowing a large portion of western civilization whole.
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Old 07-08-2017, 06:00 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by snipershot View Post
Fuck god, and fuck people who think they can judge others in any way shape or form, because of words written in a book. Fundamentalists of all religions are as bad as each other. Please just die out. Ok thats a bit harsh. I forget that im dealing with fellow human beings and not zealous automatons.

'i know that i know nothing'- some greek chav

This whole loving your neighbour crap has been totally taken out of context.
I don't believe in God and I don't believe in judging people based on what's written in a thousands of years old book.

That said, much of what is written in those books is an excellent guide for how to live a morally good life. Can't argue with "thou shalt not kill". Can't argue with "shalt not covet thy neighbours wife".

You also can't argue with the fact that Christianity is responsible for saving much of the accumilated knowledge and history of the world prior to the enlightenment. Go to Wikipedia and read about, for example, Britain, between the time it was abandoned by the Roman Empire and the time when writing and recording history became popular again around a thousand years after it was abandoned by the Roman Empire.

Do you know why you're able to read about that? It's because Monks painstakingly copied books, by hand, millions of words, and recorded the events of the day on paper for future generations to read and learn from history.

Nobody else would have done this. Nobody. The peasants were too busy pulling food out of the ground to survive the winter. The nobility were too busy wringing every last copper coin out of their subjects to build more castles and make war with the other nobles whose castles they coveted. Only the religious dedicated themselves to knowledge.

Without Christianity the dark ages in Europe would have gone on for centuries longer than they did. We might even have become a failed continent, like the Islamic world has. Christianity had an obsession with recording and compiling the accumilated history and knowledge of Europe and other places close to Europe (like north Africa, Syria, Holy Land) for future generations to learn from.

Islam had this obsession too, for a short while, before their obsession with suppressing all non-Islamic history and knowledge took over and they started burning books rather than writing them.
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Old 07-08-2017, 09:27 AM   #14
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And here I am thinking that Christianity (being a major contributor to the decline and fall of the Roman Empire) was the cause of "the dark ages".
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Old 07-08-2017, 12:09 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Daveypoo View Post
I don't believe in God and I don't believe in judging people based on what's written in a thousands of years old book.

That said, much of what is written in those books is an excellent guide for how to live a morally good life. Can't argue with "thou shalt not kill". Can't argue with "shalt not covet thy neighbours wife".

You also can't argue with the fact that Christianity is responsible for saving much of the accumilated knowledge and history of the world prior to the enlightenment. Go to Wikipedia and read about, for example, Britain, between the time it was abandoned by the Roman Empire and the time when writing and recording history became popular again around a thousand years after it was abandoned by the Roman Empire.

Do you know why you're able to read about that? It's because Monks painstakingly copied books, by hand, millions of words, and recorded the events of the day on paper for future generations to read and learn from history.

Nobody else would have done this. Nobody. The peasants were too busy pulling food out of the ground to survive the winter. The nobility were too busy wringing every last copper coin out of their subjects to build more castles and make war with the other nobles whose castles they coveted. Only the religious dedicated themselves to knowledge.

Without Christianity the dark ages in Europe would have gone on for centuries longer than they did. We might even have become a failed continent, like the Islamic world has. Christianity had an obsession with recording and compiling the accumilated history and knowledge of Europe and other places close to Europe (like north Africa, Syria, Holy Land) for future generations to learn from.

Islam had this obsession too, for a short while, before their obsession with suppressing all non-Islamic history and knowledge took over and they started burning books rather than writing them.
Thanks davey for focusing on the positives. I know the majority of people are good. And i know that most bottom rank monks felt like they were doing the lords work. But the facts remain, the clergy was always a force of oppression. They undid any good works, with the pain, torture and cruelty they inflicted daily on innocent people.
The church ended up during the dark ages as just another tyrannical force for evil. It was the enlightenment that brought us out of their grasp, as science turned its back on religion. As those same religious people realised that liberty and free thinking were the keys to human advancement, not piety and devotion to some skygod.

It is my opinion that all what is happening now, has happened before. All knowledge we learn is just us relearning. Pure conjecture yes, but more likely than some god sat in heaven.
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Old 07-08-2017, 12:13 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Aquina1300 View Post
I don't think organized religion is nearly the societal detriment that atheists think it is. I don't agree at all with those who say all religions belong in the basket of delusional, mentally ill people and/or Islam is the worst/most misunderstood.

The reality of the human condition is that religion is the most useful and positive societal construct available on the societal level.

Although science is a very useful and methodical way to understand ourselves, our world and our origins, science is incapable of explaining the love a parent has for their child. Science can't explain in moral terms any very observable, very real experience without reducing it to a mathematical and chemical description.

The most fatal mistake of those on the far left is that despite all the compassion their exceedingly stupid pawns talk about all the time, the underlining problem is that Marxist materialism can't do anything but reduce the whole of humanity into exploiters and the exploited. It can't describe itself as anything other than useful producers and useless takers. That's where materialism ultimately leads.

There is not a left wing Marxist/Communist nation that hasn't butchered its own people by the tens of thousands and if there's enough people, by the tens of millions. And all of these murderous societies have done so under the twin auspices of "science" and "the people". In this respect, the American breakdown of left and right makes the most sense - that there's really no difference between Hitler's Nazi Germany and Russia's Soviet Union. Both promised a utopia for their people and both murdered and oppressed their own people by the hundreds of millions. Both claimed they were on the right side of history and both claimed that the future belonged to them and both claimed a material salvation never before seen on planet Earth. Both created nations of pure horror.

You can go ahead and blame religion as the root cause of all the world's problems, but look at those nations that claimed they are areligious. The secular post Christian Europeans are barren and committing ethno-national suicide before our very eyes. It's not a choice between what sort of materialist, secular ethos might be the golden key of building a sustainable, developed society and others that have failed or faltered. It's a choice between those peoples who have a reason to believe in their right to exist and even prosper, and those who have lost all belief and with it, the will to go on.

I will wholeheartedly and completely agree that the "love your neighbors" ethos derived from Christianity has become the fatal flaw of Western Civilization. But that's not because of Christianity itself, but because the Christians haven't been Christian for generations now. They've become nothing but the left wing SJWs with a bit of WWJD shoved in for optics.

Christianity doesn't say "love your neighbor". Jesus said "love your neighbor as yourself". AS YOURSELF is the qualifier on that. You can't love another without loving yourself first. You can't be a martyr if you don't want to live, not in the religions of Christianity.


There is no such thing as unconditional love in Christianity and until the 20th century, no serious and learned Christian theologian would have ever uttered that grossly self centered phrase, God Loves Us All Unconditionally. In fact, the whole premise of Christianity is based on the conditions of faith and good works.

The problem is that cultural Christianity is devoid of all Christianity. Love your neighbor has forgotten the qualifier, as yourself. It's made dolts and charlatans of preachers and priests.

Cultural Western Civilization without Christianity is a suicide pact. It hasn't made the west post-Christian. It's made the west pre-Islamic.

The west is not going to win the conflict of civilizations without religion. The west can't simply promise to keep it's people one step above material ruin and then ask those same people to believe in and sacrifice for that same culture.

The social contract will never work for the soldier in the front line. It will never work for the mother that believes government should care more about her child than the child's father. The social contract has no validity in the eyes of those on the lowest rung. Materialism, welfare, that strange notion of government compassion will never be enough to produce a strong, thriving and prosperous people.

I don't even like christianity but secularism has no salvation.
Cant rep, but i agree with everything except the lack of salvation in secularism bit.
Personal salvation is personal. I was with my dad when he passed, he found his salvation and it had nothing to do with god. It was the love of his family while he lived.

Also, having my own kids, the love i have for them has nothing to do with god. Its natural to change on the inside when you have kids. Its like a switch is thrown, a light comes, a fire starts burning. But i wouldnt call it divine, ever.
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Old 07-08-2017, 03:38 PM   #17
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Cant rep, but i agree with everything except the lack of salvation in secularism bit.
Personal salvation is personal. I was with my dad when he passed, he found his salvation and it had nothing to do with god. It was the love of his family while he lived.

Also, having my own kids, the love i have for them has nothing to do with god. Its natural to change on the inside when you have kids. Its like a switch is thrown, a light comes, a fire starts burning. But i wouldnt call it divine, ever.
I don't think the role that religion serves in society is necessary one geared to individuals. Religion operates best when it isn't serving the egos of individuals in it's community.

As for the love a parent holds for his children, I wasn't point out that anything about that is divine. I don't think it is. The reason I pointed it out is because material Marxism and "science" can't explain it fully. Both can only describe it vaguely as subject to apply math and chemistry. That's the entire problem with nurturing a society that only deals with scientific facts and economics. It can't explain basic human bonds. It falls short, but yet, that's what lefties want to base everything on - science, statistics, chemicals and economics and that will never yield a prosperous, thriving society in which the people will find valuable enough to defend and continue for another generation.
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